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Scientology Ethics

Gib

Crusader
Hey Gib. I know you are asking F.Bullbait but I think the main answer is did the auditing give the person the desired result he was looking for? All Scientology and Dianetic auditing do not produced the end result of clear and OT. On this board for most this is a given. So the question is what result does auditing give? My answer is a person could benefit from auditing but at best without all the BS that a PC gets banged with is that it is a very inconsistent. A PC could have O/Ws and he might not want to continue with auditing, he might also look at the auditing as it just plain didn't help him and why on earth should he spend more for results he was promised but did not get. The last part doesn't mean that the PC had O/W but it could be for various reasons such as the tech didn't work, bad auditor, wrong process etc. Of course any Scientology org would dismiss any responsibility that Hubbard or the tech is ever at fault.

he stated specifically "overts against scientology"

so if a person doesn't have overts against scientology, and gets no "case gain" then what?

Answer they are hard sold.

or if that fails, put on the mailing list to be convince that scientology works, or are tryed to be "sold" scientology works.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
so if a new person gets auditing, and doesn't get case gain,

how on earth could he have overts on scientology?

If a person is new, and doesn't know about scientology, how on earth can he have overts against scientology?


That's the point that Dennis was making in his memoirs about the generalization that no case gain = overts against Scientology. It is idiotic. I agree.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
Here is some background of what was going on in the 60's just before KSW and Ethics.

This is from a transcribed conversation that is called The Unstacking Procedure by Dennis Stephens, November 3, 1992. It can be found here: http://tromhelp.com/Expanding_5/The-Unstacking-Prodecure.pdf



Don't ask the PC to Oppose his goals


"There’s only my own research, many years later I discovered what had happened to these people
and umm... and got the repair out for it. I know the repair, I don’t think it’s generally known
outside my research exactly how to take this situation apart, but the truth of the matter is
that while... what I’m leading up to is this datum that when you muck around with goals and
purposes your... your... Ok, you can ask the preclear for goals and purposes and postulates as
long as you don’t ask him to oppose them.

10:28
Get that very clearly, you're quite safe, any auditor in the world can work with goals and purposes
and intentions as long as he doesn’t ask,“What is the...who or what would oppose that goal...
what would be the opposition goal for that goal?”
Now once you... there you... once you ask that question you walk where angels fear to tread. There is the danger point. There is the line that Ron crossed and ahh... it all went wrong from that point onwards.
10:55
And I didn’t know why it went wrong, none of us knew why it went wrong, and none of had the
repair to put it back right. It was just endless repairs, even the repairs were being repairs .... repair
ed and the repairs that were repairing the repairs were being repaired. It just all fell apart at
that point.
11:13
In fact I would go so far as to say that the ahh... that this was ... one of the main causes of the
decline of Scientology. Ron Hubbard, case wise, took an enormous pounding on this. It hit Ron
very hard indeed, case wise, subjectively, himself. He looked absolutely terrible in 1962 when I was over there.
11:34
I knew he was under enormous restimulation, you could see it. He was bravely struggling on
with his research, the research was killing him. And he was trying everything he knew to get this
subject of goals out right, he never did get it right and case wise he never did recover. He went
downhill casewise. It hit Ron as hard as it hit anyone. Casewise he went downhill badly from
1964 onwards, even though he abandoned work on goals, went on to other things, still he
couldn’t lift that material. He couldn’t lift that restimulation.
12:09
And the datum here is that ahh...unless.... safer you can work with goals and purposes, it’s
quite safe as long as you don’t ask that key question, “what would oppose it?” You can do
anything else with a goal or a purpose. You can put...put the goal, you can mock them up, you
can have other people mock them up, you can ask what purpose would a thing have. What’s the purpose of a cat? What’s the purpose of a dog? What’s the person... purpose of a brick? What’s
the purpose of... of a house? You know?
12:36
What purposes have you had? You can do this goals, you can get him to write long lists of goals
up, I mean the auditors got enormous freedom on this subject but he must not... having got a
purpose or a goal he must not ask what is the... the opposition goal unless he knows exactly
what he is doing? If he doesn’t know exactly what he’s doing, doesn’t know the complete anatomy of the subject of goals and purposes in the mind he’ll rapidly worsen his preclear and he won’t know what’s going on. And he won’t be able to repair it.
13:10
The effect is that, if you muck around with goals and... and ... and the opposition to goals and
ask that question, “Who or what would oppose a goal?” and you don’t know... the complete
anatomy of what’s going on,your attempt to use this technology, the attempt to run these
processes and so forth will act as a maj... on the preclears case, as a major Engram. And this is
what happened to the Scientologists on the Briefing Course.
13:39
The auditing was an Engram. If you ever get one of these people that were at the Saint Hill
Briefing Course between 1961 and 1964, the whole of that period when they worked on goals,
you will find, the whole of that area will sit on their case like an engram.
It will respond exactly like an engram. As you come up to it the needle will start to jiggle as you get closer to it the needle will... will... will go into rises, then as you start to talk about the Briefing Course you’ll see the needle rise and you’ll see the tone arm rise. It’s just as if the preclear was approaching a
major engram, major engramic experience which he cannot confront.
14:19
This is what will... one of the things that I spotted myself later after I left the Briefing Course, I
got to work with some of these people, trying to repair, and everyone of them without exception
who was... who’d been at the Briefing Course, soon as you tried to talk to them about it or any
of them wanted to talk to you about it, because they were so upset about it, soon as they started
to talk about the Briefing Course 1961 to 1964 and the auditing that had, up would go their tone
arm and the needle would stick and it was just as if you were talking about a major engram on
their case.
14:50
So that’s the first moral of the story there, it’s a rather grim message, it’s rather grim, Greg, that uhh... you’re limited...there is a limitation on the subject of working with goals and purposes.
Don’t ask that question, “Who or what would oppose a goal or a purpose?”unless you know
exactly what you are doing and that unfortunately it does mean a familiarity with my research."
 

Veda

Sponsor
Here is some background of what was going on in the 60's just before KSW and Ethics.

This is from a transcribed conversation that is called The Unstacking Procedure by Dennis Stephens, November 3, 1992.

-snip-

In fact I would go so far as to say that the ahh... that this was ... one of the main causes of the
decline of Scientology. Ron Hubbard, case wise, took an enormous pounding on this. It hit Ron
very hard indeed, case wise, subjectively, himself. He looked absolutely terrible in 1962 when I was over there.
11:34
I knew he was under enormous restimulation, you could see it. He was bravely struggling on
with his research, the research was killing him. And he was trying everything he knew to get this
subject of goals out right, he never did get it right and case wise he never did recover. He went
downhill casewise. It hit Ron as hard as it hit anyone. Casewise he went downhill badly from
1964 onwards, even though he abandoned work on goals, went on to other things, still he
couldn’t lift that material. He couldn’t lift that restimulation.


-snip-

1961 to 1964

-snip-

What was in restimulation before 1961?

Fac One? The Ice Cube? The Emanator? The Jiggler? The Whirler? (All circa 1952 "whole track implants.")

Gosh, it must have been something awfully intense. Poor Ron.:bigcry:


"I can make Napoleon look like a punk." L. Ron Hubbard, from his "real goal" 'Excalibur' letter, 1938

"Men are my slaves." L. Ron Hubbard, from his 'Affirmations', 1946

"There was a difference between the ideals inherent in the Dianetic hypothesis and the actions of the Foundation in its ostensible efforts to carry out these ideals. The ideals, as I saw them, included non-authoritarianism and a flexibility of approach. The ideals... continued to be given lip-service, but I could see a definite disparity between ideals and actualities." Dr. J.A. Winter, who wrote the Introduction for 'DMSMH' in 1950, from his book, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics', 1951

"No rights of any kind... Dispose of quietly and without sorrow." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Science of Survival', 1951


Reconstituted 1950s thread, includes a sampling of the 1950s letters to the FBI: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?31867-Reconstituted-1950s-thread


"Ruin utterly..." "Always attack..." "Debate engaged upon [that] demeaned and degraded Scientology... SHOULD NEVER BE PERMITTED." [caps in original] L. Ron Hubbard, 'Manual on Dissemination of Material', March 1955

"Dianetics and Scientology are self-protecting sciences. If one attacks them one attacks all the know-how of the mind. It caves in the bank. It's gruesome sometimes.

"At this instance there are men hiding in terror on Earth because they found out what they were attacking. There are men dead because they attacked us - for instance Dr. Joe Winter [wrote Introduction to 'DMSMH', and the book, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics' with an Introduction by Fritz Perls]. He simply realized what he did and died. There are men bankrupt because they attacked us - [Don] Purcell, Ridgeway, [publisher of 'DMSMH'] Ceppos." L. Ron Hubbard, 'HCO Manual of Justice', 1959

"Find or Manufacture enough threat." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Department of Government Affairs', 1960

"Have you ever had unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?" L. Ron Hubbard, Security Check, 1961
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
Ya, it kind of sounds like 'poor Ron'.

If you read Dennis' memoir from the early 50's (link at beginning of thread), you see that he quickly realized that LRH was something of a devil.

It would seem that LRH's personal charisma could charm people even when he displayed his considerable faults. The sign of a good 'Sham'man.

I have had similar relationships where good sense often conflicted with personal affection. :duh:
 

Veda

Sponsor
Ya, it kind of sounds like 'poor Ron'.

If you read Dennis' memoir from the early 50's (link at beginning of thread), you see that he quickly realized that LRH was something of a devil.

It would seem that LRH's personal charisma could charm people even when he displayed his considerable faults. The sign of a good 'Sham'man.

I have had similar relationships where good sense often conflicted with personal affection. :duh:

Oh, Dennis' explanation is understandable. It's one of about a dozen, or twenty, explanations that address "What went wrong?"

It's one of the first areas I considered when resigning my membership in the CofS over 30 years ago. I had a stack of old Ability magazines - from the mid 1950s to about 1964 - and I searched these for clues, with special attention to unflat/unhandled (actual) "GPMs."

However it soon became apparent that things were not well in Hubbard land long before 1961 - 1964.

In fact, an explanation, often a "tech" explanation, for Hubbard's "problems," will be found to have advocates, and for almost every year of Scientology's existence.

In 1950, there were those who attributed Hubbard's irrational behavior to prenatals.

In 1952 to whole track implants.

Some thought Hubbard had been abducted and replaced with a look-alike while residing in Queens, New York, in 1973.

And there are many more "explanations" for "What went wrong."

Whatever it was, it was wrong way back in 1938, when Hubbard first wrote 'Excalibur'.

Perhaps it was the nitrous oxide gas at the dentist, in 1938, that lead to the revelations, that lead to his writing 'Excalibur', that was the "reason why." :)

Darn that Nitrous Oxide!
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, I reckon that something which can do people so much harm must have a lot of out-of-control power buried in it somehow. This sure is not a trivial bit of nonsense he was getting into with GPMs - it had a hell of a lot of bite to it. So there something there. Imagination and dub-in doesn't do this. Only real hot shit does.

So whatever it was and however it should be handled is still an open question as far as I'm concerned. But don't tell me it was all a load of crap - there be dragons in there. Big ones.
 

Veda

Sponsor
it had a hell of a lot of bite to it.

-snip-

There are people who will claim that other things had "a lot of bite."

Fact is, Hubbard was screwed up long before 1960, and long before 1950.

Happy rationalizing. :)
 

Techless

Patron Meritorious
After reading through this excruciatingly painful thread on the endless topic of 'ethics' (should maybe be re-labeled 'brainwashing 101') I just cannot see why so many who now can see the con, cannot get over this ethics thing?!?

It's not hard you see - in Scn: if you are walking down the street being happy, sane and blatantly human, and THEN: someone randomly comes out from behind and shoots a bullet through your head...why then: you MUST've done something to deserve that, pull that in, bla, bla, fucking bla...

Anyone actually thinking as to why this is so completely messed up, fucktard thinking - yet keeps questioning it...what the HELL are you doing?

Ahhh-painful to witness.

You're just not anywhere near as bad as Ron got you to think you were - to save his little empire. STOP thinking like him, or Davey or whoever - that's the whole trap!! ANd apparently why those with really evil ideas lurking there, are in it, or somewhere around it. But keep in mind there's a whole lot of other evil going on everywhere else too. Ronny/Davey gots no franchise on that.

Now those who really are bad, bad, bad - are not even anywhere around here - or else just stuck somewhere between being free of the trap, but needing to keep creating it for one to be in.

It's just so much better to be free of that thinking. The OP was right, it just sounds like he hadn't quite yet then, figured out why it smelled and tasted so bad
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
There are people who will claim that other things had "a lot of bite."

Fact is, Hubbard was screwed up long before 1960, and long before 1950.

Happy rationalizing. :)


I'm talking about GPMs, not about Hubbard.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Well, I reckon that something which can do people so much harm must have a lot of out-of-control power buried in it somehow. This sure is not a trivial bit of nonsense he was getting into with GPMs - it had a hell of a lot of bite to it. So there something there. Imagination and dub-in doesn't do this. Only real hot shit does.

So whatever it was and however it should be handled is still an open question as far as I'm concerned. But don't tell me it was all a load of crap - there be dragons in there. Big ones.

I agree Leon ... but the same could be said for anything that completely alters the course on your life, the way in which you interact with others and subsequent losses and wins (including being sent to gaol).


:)
 

AnonKat

Crusader
GPM is a Hubardism. To you it is a truth. It may have some truth in it, but be careful not to be enchanted by it to the point of being hypnotized by it.

GOD DAMN FILTHY INVALADATING PIECE OF

try to

cant even
 

Gib

Crusader
GPM is a Hubardism. To you it is a truth. It may have some truth in it, but be careful not to be enchanted by it to the point of being hypnotized by it.

scientology creates problems for its (scientology) own solution
 

Veda

Sponsor

:duh: indeed. For over three decades I've seen people, convinced that Hubbard really had something with his Goals, Problems, Mass ideas, of the early 1960s. (Before GPMs it was something else of which people were convinced, and knew was IT, all the way back to prenatal engrams, but that's another topic.)

Some of these people have been trying to correct Hubbard's errors and make it work. (The first I remember was break-away Field Auditor Lloyd Greenberg, in 1983. Lloyd was really trying to make this stuff work.)

But work to do what? To make "Operating Thetans." Remember? That was the objective and the theory. By removing the Goals, Problems, Mass bank one would remove the encumbrance that kept a person from being what he naturally is: an "Operating Thetan."

And what do we have? We have old accounts by people from the early 1960s of others collapsing, becoming ill, being wheeled out of rooms in wheelbarrows, etc., and it's very dramatic and impressive.

Still, after several decades of tweaking, and modifying, and correcting, by others, this amazing GPM discovery has produced nothing even vaguely resembling an "Operating Thetan."

What has it done? Not a heck of a lot, from what I can see, frankly. Yes, there are some "wins," and no doubt this area, as with many other areas, can affect a person.

The degree to which the Hubbardism, "GPM," fascinates some, does boarder on the hypnotic. It's not usual to see the same people unconsciously and automatically using other Hubbardisms such as "outpoint," etc.

And the Hubbardism, "thetan," is often used by many of these same folks to describe themselves. This is done without footnotes or quotation marks, and the person simply accepts that he is a "thay-tan." It just is. Arguing won't change it. It's been soldered in place.


From the 'Affirmations':

And, "Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write."

"Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler."


This idea that people have drives and that "stuff happens" and then leaves a "scar" is not new. The subject of identities and contrary identities is not new. Literature and the news are packed with just these things. It's part of the drama of life.

Even Hubbard's 1950 "engram," which is borrowed from the earlier (non Scientology) term "engram," is a kind of mini-"GPM." The little fish has a Goal: TO SURVIVE. It is chased, and bitten and almost eaten by a bigger fish: Problem. Then it has a "(memory) trace on a cell," or kind of scar, and this is the Mass.

The little fish's "identity" may even shift, especially over successive generations - if one believes in biological evolution - as it modifies itself, or even adopts some of the traits of the other larger threatening fish that have repeatedly interrupted its goal to Survive, repeatedly caused it Problems, and repeatedly left it (and its species) with "Mass" in the form of memory traces/scars.

So it's a pretty universal theme.

And I've even done my own work in this area of Scientology, when, years ago - reviewing Scientology from the standpoint of an auditor - I explored some of the techniques of the late 1950s that led to, and preceded, Hubbard's "GPM" material. That can be interesting stuff, and it has to do with Identities and things such as Helping and with being Dominated, etc. But even then, as a recently out of the CofS newbie ex-Scientologist, who was re-examining auditing outside the CofS, I could see that, while the late 1950s stuff seemed promising, that the stuff to which it led, the early 1960s GPM stuff, was a quagmire, and also a dead end.

And the stuff to which that led, being "Implant GPMs," was even worse, and I've already covered that area of Hubbardian mind-grope adequately elsewhere.

So, I'm not "invalidating" any of you "thetans" out there, or even the general idea of GOALS, PROBLEMS, MASS, and IDENTITIES, just suggesting that you back way from it, pause, squint your eyes, tilt your head slightly, and take another look, and perhaps contemplate the degree to which the assumptions you made years ago, after being deceptively led into Scientology, may not be entirely true, or quite as marvelous as you believe. :)
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes. I agree with your post, Veda. It's a good one.

I myself have not ventured into trying to run that stuff on either myself or others. I have did do some correction actions on guys years ago in trying to fish people out of that stuff and for the most I think I was quite successful. What I found interesting at the time was the fact that what mostly read on the list and produced the change in guys was the "not your charge" item on the L4B. I forget the exact wording now but basically it was that they had been audited on bullshit case.

All I'm saying here now in my earlier post is that there is MASSIVE charge in this GPM area, I have no idea what underlies it nor how it should be handled. Dennis Stephens' work on it makes a lot of sense and apparently one guy (posting name of Slim) has said that he made huge gains with that and has reached some sort of EP on it. More than that I don't know.

But if a simple auditing action can harm to such a degree then it clearly has meat in it and one should strive for an understanding of it. Leaving is alone for ever is not a survival action. ref Black Panther mechanism.

You know this is a bit like the Does God Exist argument.

If you look at the available evidence on UTube of guys in the US music and movie industry and their habits (some of them) of making pacts with the devil to get him to boost their access to fame and money and pussy etc and you hear of the success they had from that and the later horrifying stories of their descent into insanity and worse - well it sure seems pretty certain that the Devil exists (or a good substitute for him). Evil does exist in this universe as an actual force. And I reckon that if the Devil exists then God must exist somewhere too. We just need to tune in to him better.

And another thing - it is very clear to me that the overwhelmingly major game in this universe is to gobble up thetans. I have posted on this elsewhere on this board. Just about every human and 5th dynamic activity on this planet consists of either eating other life forms or capturing them r their attention units. The intention to absorb other thetans presents itself in a zillion different ways all of which have this common denominator. Pilot goes into this too. the universe is set up so that eventually there will be only one thetan who finally gobbles up the last mouthful and he will be the winner. All these BTs and stuff - they are the guys you have gobbled up and they are sitting on your case trying to get their revenge. The game is not over for them.

What am I getting at? Simply that all this should not be dismissed as being "Hubbard's crap". He was into something. He had some vague glimmerings of what was going on (as I do) but had no good idea on how to deal with it (as I don't).

I'll leave it here for now.
 
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