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LRH Insane

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
I was thinking today about LRH. You know... he was just an ordinary being just like any of us. Anyway, it occured to me... what if LRH found the true meaning of life... he answered his original questions about life and because of the answers he went crazy.

Does that sound like a good explaination about LRH and the dust particles he was paranoid about? I really feel sorry that he had to go through that, and DM or some of the members of the board probably killed him off to end it quicker. Why else would LRH try and take psychiatric medications. That doesn't make sense unless DM and the people who would take control after LRH's passing drugged him and got him to die quicker.

Just a thought. :) Any ideas?

-Steve
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I think LRH went crazy because he intentionally fucked with other peoples' minds as much as he possibly could.

That is very very bad juju.
 

Romuva

Patron Meritorious
In my opinion,it was much earlier.Perhaps his genetic-disposition.

Accounts from his childhood seem to indicate this.
 

Kilia

Patron with Honors
He was insane for the very reason that he took massive amounts of drugs. When one has alot of drugs in their system, very strange things come out of their heads.
 

ron's hat

Patron with Honors
....what if LRH found the true meaning of life...

Well then....that would mean that the true meaning of life is to do years and years of drugs until you are so screwed up that somebody can simply come in and off you once and for all and help themself to your accumulated 'wealth'. Sounds great....I'm willing to give it a try....let's go for it!!!:)
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
He was insane for the very reason that he took massive amounts of drugs. When one has alot of drugs in their system, very strange things come out of their heads.

I think it was the management that forced that medication on him. From what I can theorize, he became very uncooperative and depressed. LRH Jr. even expressed some concern for his father due to the company of DM.

-Steve
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
Well then....that would mean that the true meaning of life is to do years and years of drugs until you are so screwed up that somebody can simply come in and off you once and for all and help themself to your accumulated 'wealth'. Sounds great....I'm willing to give it a try....let's go for it!!!:)

:confused: WHAT???

That made no sense in the beginning. :unsure: :eek: :ohmy:
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
He was insane for the very reason that he took massive amounts of drugs. When one has alot of drugs in their system, very strange things come out of their heads.

I suspect that Ron was on at least *one* cutting edge of His society, in that He very likely was an early user of amphetamines.

They were increasingly popular during the War Years, since they were available, and, I doubt He was very much into any kind of opiates, which were also popular at the time.

His 'Affirmations' read like a benny nightmare.

Certainly most of His megalomania, terror and solipsist narcissism could be traced to early personality defects, but, I do think that his early amphetamine use may explain his 'crashing into history'.

I doubt He ever smoked dope (much at least) or took acid more than enough times to terrify Himself into His own 'ever dwindling spiral'.

I do think that speculation on Ron 'discovering' exteriorization on nitrous oxide is credible.

No. Ron was a speed-freek. A tweaker. Who constantly rollercoastered on barbituates to mellow them out. (and rum, of course)

Zinj
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I hate to sound like a disloyal whatsis, but thing is, there are some indications that he had mental posted to ars every now and again- where he's asking some shrink for help?

I like a lot of his ideas. I do think he was messing with some powerful stuff. And I like Kilia's point about the drugs. (Hi, Kilia!)

But that letter was rather revealing, too...
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
I hate to sound like a disloyal whatsis, but thing is, there are some indications that he had mental posted to ars every now and again- where he's asking some shrink for help?

I like a lot of his ideas. I do think he was messing with some powerful stuff. And I like Kilia's point about the drugs. (Hi, Kilia!)

But that letter was rather revealing, too...

Well, even if he took drugs, I've found that observing people in that state of mind tend to be very interesting... it's like they start talking to themselves. They tend to find things out about themselves that they didn't know before... very interesting stuff... or it can turn into an experience of meeting et's or journeying to heaven.

Wouldn't be so strange except people who "came back" describe similar circumstances. Don't worry, I've already checked what they were on at the time, and for the most part, they were relatively drug free, there wasn't enough drugs to induce a "religious experience"/NDE, or they weren't on the right drugs.

That leads me to believe that drugs can have a STRONG experience and may just be somewhat accurate.

There's speculation that musicians on drugs take songs from heaven to Earth. I'm not sure if I believe this, but "Hotel California" by the Eagles became a huge hit, and I'm fairly certain this was on a drug experience.

If nothing else, this is just good food for thought.

-Steve
 

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
I was thinking today about LRH. You know... he was just an ordinary being just like any of us. Anyway, it occured to me... what if LRH found the true meaning of life... he answered his original questions about life and because of the answers he went crazy.

Does that sound like a good explaination about LRH and the dust particles he was paranoid about? I really feel sorry that he had to go through that, and DM or some of the members of the board probably killed him off to end it quicker. Why else would LRH try and take psychiatric medications. That doesn't make sense unless DM and the people who would take control after LRH's passing drugged him and got him to die quicker.

Just a thought. :) Any ideas?

-Steve

What have you been smoking?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
The best description of LRH's insanity comes from two people that I know of, Jesse Prince and Kima Douglas, both eyewitnesses who have talked.

I'm sure there are other eyewitnesses, they just aren't talkin'.

Google those names.

Can anyone think of any other resources for people to fill in the data about LRH's sanity, or lack thereof??
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Can anyone think of any other resources for people to fill in the data about LRH's sanity, or lack thereof??

The best evidence I can think of is his own words, or as close to them as we can get in his books and tapes. There are millions upon millions of his words to judge the man by, spanning decades, that he considered should be preserved for all eternity. Are these works taken as a whole indicative of someone generally sane, or insane?

It is true that one normally judges a person by his deeds and not his words. But how important are the actions, the lives of Plato, or Bacon, or Newton compared to their written works? On the other hand, how important are the written works of Stalin, Hitler or other politicians nowadays? A hundred years from now--assuming that there will be a hundred years from now--what will the man be remembered for? A legacy of pulling together from various sources, however imperfectly, the basics of a spiritual technology that showed thousands upon thousands of people that something can be done about it? Or the countless miseries inflicted on the faithful by his Church? Or both? Or nothing at all?

It's impossible to be black and white about it. We all have periods of sanity and insanity to a greater or lesser degree.

There are many different definitions he gave for sanity or insanity over the years. My favourite is the one about sanity being the ability to recognize differences, similarities and identities. I find that more useful than the more general ones like assisting pro-survival factors and inhibiting non-survival ones. If you don't like his own definitions, find some elsewhere. I find "The ability to tell right from wrong" somewhat limited though.

Are all his policies and bulletins and other works sensible, promoting general survival, correctly pointing out differences, similarities and identities? Of course not. But are a majority so?

How about his works from the 50s compared to his works from the 60s? The 70s? The 80s?

I think a wider analysis like that will prove more fruitful than a handful of eye-witness snapshots of times he showed a deep compassion for someone, a brutal contempt for another, a love or a paranoia.

He was a complex man who affected a large number of people over a rich lifetime. "Was he nuts or was he OK?" doesn't cut it.

Paul
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
The best evidence I can think of is his own words, or as close to them as we can get in his books and tapes. There are millions upon millions of his words to judge the man by, spanning decades, that he considered should be preserved for all eternity. Are these works taken as a whole indicative of someone generally sane, or insane?

It is true that one normally judges a person by his deeds and not his words. But how important are the actions, the lives of Plato, or Bacon, or Newton compared to their written works? On the other hand, how important are the written works of Stalin, Hitler or other politicians nowadays? A hundred years from now--assuming that there will be a hundred years from now--what will the man be remembered for? A legacy of pulling together from various sources, however imperfectly, the basics of a spiritual technology that showed thousands upon thousands of people that something can be done about it? Or the countless miseries inflicted on the faithful by his Church? Or both? Or nothing at all?

It's impossible to be black and white about it. We all have periods of sanity and insanity to a greater or lesser degree.

There are many different definitions he gave for sanity or insanity over the years. My favourite is the one about sanity being the ability to recognize differences, similarities and identities. I find that more useful than the more general ones like assisting pro-survival factors and inhibiting non-survival ones. If you don't like his own definitions, find some elsewhere. I find "The ability to tell right from wrong" somewhat limited though.

Are all his policies and bulletins and other works sensible, promoting general survival, correctly pointing out differences, similarities and identities? Of course not. But are a majority so?

How about his works from the 50s compared to his works from the 60s? The 70s? The 80s?

I think a wider analysis like that will prove more fruitful than a handful of eye-witness snapshots of times he showed a deep compassion for someone, a brutal contempt for another, a love or a paranoia.

He was a complex man who affected a large number of people over a rich lifetime. "Was he nuts or was he OK?" doesn't cut it.

Paul

Interesting post, Paul... makes me think... and that's a good thing. :D

-Steve
 

OHTEEATE

Silver Meritorious Patron
LRH

In the mid-80's a friend told me LRH wanted to meet him. A few people were lined up outside the Int base in the parking lot, and LRH drove in past them, in the back seat of his car, and waved and smiled, as each person was named. He did not want any exposure to germs. Howard Hughes syndrome. Bug fuck crazy.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
The best evidence I can think of is his own words, or as close to them as we can get in his books and tapes. There are millions upon millions of his words to judge the man by, spanning decades, that he considered should be preserved for all eternity. Are these works taken as a whole indicative of someone generally sane, or insane?

It is true that one normally judges a person by his deeds and not his words. But how important are the actions, the lives of Plato, or Bacon, or Newton compared to their written works? On the other hand, how important are the written works of Stalin, Hitler or other politicians nowadays? A hundred years from now--assuming that there will be a hundred years from now--what will the man be remembered for? A legacy of pulling together from various sources, however imperfectly, the basics of a spiritual technology that showed thousands upon thousands of people that something can be done about it? Or the countless miseries inflicted on the faithful by his Church? Or both? Or nothing at all?

I think you should judge him by his words and his actions. Taken together I think you can get a fuller picture with which to judge.

For instance, the FDA raid came from years of Hubbard actually claiming that Dianetics and Scientology could cure cancer, arthritis, paralysis, and all kinds of other diseases and conditions. And he was selling it based on those claims. And when the auditing didn't cure these things, he would just say that you haven't done enough.

Then, after the FDA raided, took the emeters and took him to court for years, he never once said, "Wait a minute. Maybe it doesn't cure these things. Maybe we should revise the results on which we are selling Dianetics and Scientology so that we aren't giving people false hope."

No. Instead he called the FDA a bunch of SPs and railed against Presidents Kennedy and Nixon, and started in on a huge conspiracy theory campaign and instilled it in his followers, covertly continuing to sell on the basis that it will cure diseases.

It's impossible to be black and white about it. We all have periods of sanity and insanity to a greater or lesser degree.

There are many different definitions he gave for sanity or insanity over the years. My favourite is the one about sanity being the ability to recognize differences, similarities and identities. I find that more useful than the more general ones like assisting pro-survival factors and inhibiting non-survival ones. If you don't like his own definitions, find some elsewhere. I find "The ability to tell right from wrong" somewhat limited though.
Instead of a definition, how about a standard?

After all, this guy is writing processes that go deep into people's minds, and as a C/S is in charge of their cases.

Do you want to turn your mind over to a person who says AND does things like Hubbard did? If you knew the juxtaposition of his words and deeds, would you really want to buy his services and subject yourself to them?

Are all his policies and bulletins and other works sensible, promoting general survival, correctly pointing out differences, similarities and identities? Of course not. But are a majority so?

How about his works from the 50s compared to his works from the 60s? The 70s? The 80s?

I think a wider analysis like that will prove more fruitful than a handful of eye-witness snapshots of times he showed a deep compassion for someone, a brutal contempt for another, a love or a paranoia.
I agree with a wider analysis. But, in the end, you have to look at the analysis and make a decision based on the preponderance of the results.

I think his work in the 1950's was generally more sane than his work from the mid-1960's on. If you cut the subject in half, 1948 to 1965, and 1966 to 1986, I think you will find that he went insane in the last half. And, as has been mentioned, the seeds for that insanity were evident in the first half.

And remember, Dianetics was supposed to create a Clear, or a well and happy human being. And Scientology was supposed to take you to states where nothing could strike you down.

These standards SHOULD be employed in evaluating LRH, and his work.

In the end, it didn't.

He was a complex man who affected a large number of people over a rich lifetime. "Was he nuts or was he OK?" doesn't cut it.

Paul
All right. But I think the better question is, "Given what I know about his words and his deeds, should I entrust my mind and life to a man who seeks to create these kinds of effects on me?"

For me, the answer is clear. It is a resounding NO.

That's why he hid his deeds, and presented his words. Because he was waging an onslaught on the minds and sanity of anyone who would submit to him.

And so, when you look at this from a wider perspective, and distill down everything we know, and apply the above standard, I think you can ask: "Was he nuts or was he okay"?

Just ask your self if YOU would have behaved the way LRH did, and look at what YOU would have to be thinking to say and do those things.

Using these standards, I think that you can legitimately conclude that yes, LRH was nuts. And that does cut it, as far as how much you should be willing to subject your mind and life to his control.
 
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