Exes who have OSA pasts

[Voltaire's Child]

I've seen quite a few comments made about not trusting people or being worried about them because they had OSA pasts. Some of these comments were made recently.

When I see that, it annoys me a bit, because I perceive a double standard.


Let me explain: One of those individuals - Pook- has spent years compiling data and making it available only to be attacked - not only for other things- but for that. Come on. Give me a break. Are people at all aware of how much the cult hates having their lies and shitty production made public? This person has also forwarded communication that was passed to others by insiders who hated what was happening. In short, she has proved herself.

Someone might say, well, but her having past OSA ties concerns me. We can't be too careful.

To that I'd say that this sounds reasonable until I consider that fact that a very well known critic - whose passion for publicly focusing the spotlight on CofS' abuses and whose assistance to many people is well known- spent quite a bit of time helping OSA when she was still in the cult, and, when she back then, was part of the cult's attempts to destroy alt.religion.scientology. Yet I don't see ANYONE saying, oh jeez, she used to be an OSA operative, I can't trust her. And before anyone get their panties in a bunch, I'm not saying that her OSA past means we cannot trust her now. I'm saying that some people mention Pooks' OSA past, but nothing about anyone else's.

I was at dinner with a bunch of exes last year. Nice people. Someone at the table commented that just about all of them had helped OSA out on occasion when they were in the cult.

So you know what? If someone's an ex and they are a vocal critic and they used to be with OSA or the GO or something, so what. Just knock off trying to use it against them. Because I'm telling you this- this standard is NOT being applied universally.

It's like witchhunts. They didn't target ALL the wisewoman, grannies, and so on. Nope. You had to piss them off first. Maybe someone powerful wanted their land, or someone was unhappy with the person or maybe truly believed they were a witch. But there were lots of people who probably acted badly, maybe even practiced magic, who those same people didn't even worry about. Why? Because it was a way to get at the person. Like an angry woman who cries rape but who wasn't raped. Or one beaut I heard of some years back- a neighbor called in a complaint about how her neighbor's two year old was made to eat off the floor, didn't wear diapers, whatever else. Yep. It was all true. And the woman was called on the carpet for it. But the two year old was a two year old PET RACCOON. The neighbor conveniently neglected to mention that. Why? Because she was trying to fuck over that other lady.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I've seen quite a few comments made about not trusting people or being worried about them because they had OSA pasts.

Please help me understand this paranoia, what exactly do they think these Ex-OSA Bogeymen and Bogeywomen can do to them?

 

[Gadfly]

OSA is only going to go after someone who is truly a threat to them. They have MANY big problems to deal with these days.

ESMB is one small part of what is on the Internet NEGATIVE about Scientology.

Just as with conspiracy theories, my attitude is, why bother worrying yourself about it? You won't know what secretive and manipulative people will do before they do it, and whatever happens will happen. Live, be honest, and ignore them until you have a real in-your-face need to NOT ignore them.

As I see it, NOW, in PT, OSA creates little or no effect on ESMB.

People continue to post here and discuss the many negative aspects of Scientology.

Just keep doing THAT.

And, yes Fluffy is right. Many people "worked with" OSA while involved in Scientology. It usually means nothing once they are truly OUT. I worked in CCHR for a few years back in the 1990s, and I met with the CO OSA CW every week. So what? I thought he was a jerk then, and I think he is a jerk now. But that makes me no less a fairly vocal critic of many aspects of Scientology, and in no way implies that I might still "work for OSA".

The ONLY valuable product regarding ESMB for OSA would be to get it closed down. Until THAT happens, and as long as real facts continue to get posted here about the negative aspects of Scientology, I wouldn't worry about it. Sure, there will probably always be "OSA agents" who will take on handles and post things to disrupt, cause diversion, and distract, often unbeknownst to many or most, but so what. IGNORE THEM. Just say NO! Refuse to participate in threads that largely act as distractions and diversions to the real discussion of the flaws and harms of Scientology.

++++++

 

[Panda Termint]

They actually do very little, some of the recent anxieties are as a result of a concerted "feeding of fears". Anyone who dares point this out is liable to be accused of distracting attention and being OSA-ish themselves.

Some people choose to allay the fears of others, some seem to delight in encouraging and amplifying them.

My viewpoint is that most of the fear expressed recently on ESMB is groundless but even if it were true... so what? This cult is going down and all OSAbots will be looking for a new line of work soon.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

An argument I'd use to someone who thought some long time critic was OSA- and I have used this when I've had that speculation lobbed at me- is that if that person were OSA, then by now, a LOT of people would have been betrayed.

It would be nice to have there be less hysteria.

I mean, by all means, don't post with your full name if you've reason to believe the cult is after you or you have loved ones still in and you want to be anonymous, and don't disclose things that may hurt someone to people you aren't sure about.

But basically, posting on a public forum isn't going to cause any of those breaches in security to happen.

But yeah, when I see some of the inconsistency, I realize that it isn't so much the OSA bogeyman that's maybe the issue for some, but people playing politics.

 

[Jachs]

I've seen quite a few comments made about not trusting people or being worried about them because they had OSA pasts. Some of these comments were made recently.

When I see that, it annoys me a bit, because I perceive a double standard.


Let me explain: One of those individuals - Pook- has spent years compiling data and making it available only to be attacked - not only for other things- but for that. Come on. Give me a break. Are people at all aware of how much the cult hates having their lies and shitty production made public? This person has also forwarded communication that was passed to others by insiders who hated what was happening. In short, she has proved herself.

On the record I like Pooks, doing a good job exposing scn.

 

[LongTimeGone]

I don't have a clue about any of this, but that has never stopped me commenting in the past so here goes with my 5 cents worth.

If an ex (OSA history or not) provides information that is critical of and detrimental to the cult and that person is subsequently attacked, then we should be looking closely at the attackers.

LTG

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I don't have a clue about any of this, but that has never stopped me commenting in the past so here goes with my 5 cents worth.

If an ex (OSA history or not) provides information that is critical of and detrimental to the cult and that person is subsequently attacked, then we should be looking closely at the attackers.

LTG

I understand the general suspicion against some one who once worked for OSA.

There are lots of jobs for OSA.

Some just gathered information from libraries or public records.

Some gathered information by posing as another person to get the information that OSA needed..

Some gathered information by working at places to gain access to information.

And some infiltrate groups that OSA considers enemies to subvert the groups effectiveness.

Most of the actions of the first three are harmless.

But the one that can disrupt individuals is the fourth one.

Because in order to render a group less effective one usually has to covertly enturbulate one of the enemy group's key people.

And this can be done in many different ways.

But this alone is not cause for suspicion of a person after they have left the group.

The problem is, there is a certain excitement to working undercover. It gives one a sensation of superiority that is hard to explain.

One feels not only above the everyday person of the "wog-world" but also a sense of superiority over other Scientologists.

And especially a sense of superiority over public OTs who are just looked upon as "customers" of Scientology.

And that excitement, that inner verve, that pride, is amplified even more by the fact that no one knows what you're doing.

You're putting on an award winning performence and no one else knows.

There is a self-satisfaction and excitement to it that is difficult to put into words.

And it is that excitement that gives credence to the old saying "once a spy, always a spy."

Even after a person becomes fairly distance from Scientology and the Church, when approached by OSA to get back in the game they jump at the chance.

It is in the nature of the beast, the spy, that keeps bringing them back into the game, even after they've lost their appetite for Scientology.

And that is why one arouses suspicion just by having been a former member or operative for OSA or the GO.

Sometimes people who have been at least to this fourth level, can actually spot it in another person who is in the groove. There is a shibboleth for those who have been there.

I know I can trust Pooks. She passed my test long ago.

But I have seen one or two others who wear the shibboleth on their sleeves.

I stay clear of them.

OSA actually has a good sense as to who can do what kind of job. Everybody is not suited for the fourth type.

Dedication has nothing to do with it. Ego has.

Here is a 47 second scene from the movie "The spy who came in from the cold."

It also sums it up nicely.

http://youtu.be/nOUtFzeMhhA

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Helena Handbasket]

OSA Spies?

I'm sure OSA has posted deep-cover operatives in various anti-church organizations, including this one. Their aim is to be posted to executive jobs, then promote their own kind to whatever positions of power they can.

While some people are known to have OSA backgrounds, I'm sure there are other OSA operatives who are not known to be OSA-connected. The first group may be there to provide "noise" to cover the second group.

I doubt they'll really ever be able to take over ESMB because it's basically a one-woman operation. If Emma remains true, this BBS is safe.

Individuals who are concerned about their privacy can always post under a pseudonym, like I do. (Each time someone logs on, their IP address is automatically recorded. The log file needs to be kept safe, or better yet, simply erased every day.)

For larger groups, the best strategy is not to promote people to high positions if you have not known them for a long time, and to require all promotions to be ratified two or preferably three levels up in the organization.

Original church policy was to only promote those people to executive positions who were trained and proven tech terminals. Perhaps if this policy had been continued the church would be very different today and ESMB would not even be needed.

Church anti-infiltrator tech failed because those who were supposed to be administering the checks were themselves plants.

And if anybody from OSA is listening, I have a complaint---I never got my declare! How do I get mey declare?

Helena

 

[Panda Termint]

I'd hardly call ESMB an "anti-scientology organisation". It's a message board! There are no "high positions" in ESMB. As you've noted, Emma is queen here but we're really just a bunch of individuals with a mutual cause for concern. We post about those concerns.

 

[Sindy]

When I first left the church, only a year ago, I couldn't stop reading the forbidden data. I read and I read and I read.

One of the things that I came across was an extremely heartfelt letter written by Pooks (who I didn't know of at the time) and I thought to myself, "Wow, I'd like to know this person. She seems totally amazing."

Why? Because she apologized to a man for going through his garbage as an OSA agent, her head hung down in shame and remorse. It was very well written and I could feel how she felt and I knew she was genuine. Ya just know.

All this OSA crap is for the birds.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I'd hardly call ESMB an "anti-scientology organisation". It's a message board! There are no "high positions" in ESMB. As you've noted, Emma is queen here but we're really just a bunch of individuals with a mutual cause for concern. We post about those concerns.

ESMB is prolific source for gaining information about the abuses of Scientology.

The actual names of many of the posters would be very helpful to OSA.

And if you think OSA wouldn't like to see this board shut down then I think you are living in a dream world.

OSA decides who its enemies are. It doesn't make that decision based on theories and abstract definitions by critics.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Panda Termint]

TAJ, I don't disagree with anything you've said above except the idea that you'd think I was saying anything other than what I said, ie. ESMB is not, IMO, an "anti-scientology organisation" (said in direct response to Helena saying it was such).

 

[Helena Handbasket]

TAJ, I don't disagree with anything you've said above except the idea that you'd think I was saying anything other than what I said, ie. ESMB is not, IMO, an "anti-scientology organisation" (said in direct response to Helena saying it was such).

When I said "anti-church organizations" I meant any group that is contrary to the church's aims. This BBS definitely falls into that category, especially as it tends to tarnish its image.

Helena

 

[uniquemand]

You make a valid point, VC.

I, myself, worked for an OSA. I, myself, am certainly one of the people who has had concern about OSA influence, here. I don't think it is a pervasive or severe issue, but I am alert for it, because I have seen a few different environments closed that I enjoyed and that were helpful for n00bs that were online at that time.

I don't think there's any need for a witch hunt. People simply need to be aware that OSA has not disappeared, and take that under advisement. Their purpose and methods have not changed.

Those who continue to consider themselves Scientologists create a problem for those of us who do not. Scientology is a package of beliefs and practices, including investigations, compartmentalization of information, etc. This makes it very hard to trust them, as they also believe that the purpose of "clearing the planet" supercedes other purposes, even down to their own marriages or other commitments. Particularly those who were famous for holding high-level OSA positions, and continue to be "Independents": where do they draw the line, now? It's very plastic, of course, because even active Scientologists differ in how informed they are regarding policy and the real actions of OSA or RTC. So, some "garden-variety" types only think in terms of wanting to improve ARC/KRC and the conditions around them, considering OSA and their programs to almost be "not real scientology", if they consider them at all.

So, if I come to a picnic full of people that have suffered at the hands of the Church, and announce that I am an active Scientologist and that I used to be the international head of OSA, would you expect that group to say "great! I hope you brought some pie!"

 

[Pooks]

Thanks Claire for starting this thread and discussing this topic.

Since I've been rather active lately here on ESMB and taken on some well loved and popular ex's and critics, I guess it's as good a time as any to explain my behavior in the recent shit storm.

I've written lots and lots of articles/posts over the past 11 years explaining my activities while in the cult and have tried to be helpful in educating ex's, the media and general public about Scn from my being a 27 year insider to a vile cult.

Once upon a time, in my life before Scn, I was rather fearless in taking on bullies. Bullies come in all shapes and sizes. Some are arrogant and in your face and others whisper threats in your ears. I couldn’t really help it because I come from a long line of rather outspoken women.

Bullies succeed because they lie and instill fear in people.

Somehow, I went from being someone that stood up to bullies, to becoming a kind of bully while in the cult.

I really loved Scn when I was "in". To me, it was the TRUE answer to all of mankind's ills. I was uneducated enough and naive enough to buy the whole kit and kaboodle. I loved it all and if I had not done LSD would more than likely have been in the Sea Org and moving up the ranks because I had that "hardcore" dedication thing going on. Ruthless if need be, just like LRH said to be.

I was recruited into the GO when I was 23 or 24 years old and holding the post of Exec. Director Narconon Connecticut.

I was recruited by Larry Byrnes and Bobby Johnson. Larry, was an (old) OT 7 and at the top of the Bridge to Total Freedumb and the newly appointed AGSCNE, Assistant Guardian Social Coordination (now called ABLE) New England. He was a wise cracking, good looking man from “Southie”—South Boston, and the type of man I really liked. Bobby Johnson, was the head of Boston’s B1—The Guardians Office Intel Division and was just a hunka, hunka burning love.

I remember Bobby asking me if I knew what B1 does for Scientology and I responded, “No, does anyone?” He LOL’d.

Larry must have pulled rank at the end because it was decided that I would be the Dir of Rehab for the Guardians Office which is the post that runs, controls, manages the LRH tech groups like Narconon, Applied Scholastics, Criminon and any LRH tech schools, like Delphi.

In the scheme of things, the Dir of Rehab is sort of a benign management post. A similar position to working as a management type in a CLO.(middle management).

As the Dir of Rehab I was not privy to what went on in B1. Only those in B1 knew what was going on. Just because someone worked for the Guardians Office or OSA does not mean they knew of or were involved in the really creepy stuff done in that area. Non B1/Invest staff are told to mind their
business and to turn their eyes away from anything to do with the Invest area. Non Invest staff were not allowed in the Invest offices or if they did go
in, they could not be in there alone, they had to always be accompanied by invest staff.

Security was always extremely tight. I used to have to sleep with my keys to door that let me into the Guardians Office and when awake I would wear them around my neck because to leave keys unattended even for 1 second meant lower conditions and having to buy a whole new lock and key system for the Guardians Office Door.

Extreme security like this and like the treatment and handling of your OT Folders is part of the indoctrination that drives in the paranoia and the importance of protecting Scientology from it’s “enemies”.

I was a lover of the “tech”. I was not a trained techie with lots of certs although I was an HSDC graduate and audited 100’s of hours on Dianetics with R3R and I was a Class 0 and Solo Auditor, and I would spend my free time just reading the red volumes for the pure love of wanting to learn how to make man free from the chains of MEST. I thought I understood Scientology auditing ‘conceptually” and felt the Guardians Office was the right place for me to be as I was in alignment with the Purpose of the Guardians Office which was something about “safeguarding and expanding” Scientology. I did clay demo the purpose of the Guardians Office over 30 years ago but I’m a post menopausal gal these days and my memory is
not as keen as it used to be.

I fulfilled my 2.5 year contract with the Guardians Office and refused to resign my contract. After 2.5 years, I came to the conclusion that the G.O.
was a suppressive group (1981/82) and stated this to my best friend and G.O. staff member Maureen O’Keefe. She of course wrote it up and the shit hit the fan.

I was put in lower conditions and not allowed to be in the Guardians Office space. I had to finish my remaining months of my contract at the local Delphi School.

Shortly thereafter, I left the Church of Scientology. I was still a Scientologist but knew there was something really wrong with the management and decided to just lay low out in the field.

Some time passed and the next thing I know top Guardians Office staff like Jane Kember and G.O. WW staff are getting declared and the G.O. is being disbanded and a new “on source and in tech” group is taking over! Yaaaaay!
It’s safe to go back! Or so I thought.

Tony Charmbanis, who I helped recruit into the G.O. was the new OSA Invest Dir for Boston. She’s now the CO OSA EUS.

Anywayz, Tony gave me the whole PR line/shore story about how it’s all different now and that OSA is run on Green on White and is on source and
no longer “autonomous” but works hand in hand with the Sea Org and management.

It’s what I wanted to hear. So when she recruited me to work for OSA Invest—non staff—although I did get paid by OSA Int for some of my projects, I had no problems agreeing.

I had a “high confront of evil” which translates into being a special kind of retard that believes everything that spews from Hubbard’s mouth as the truth.

I’ve written up the most egregious of my activities and they are scattered about the internet. Someday, if I get to care enough, I will gather them up and put them in one place.

It’s was and sometimes still is difficult to write about my activities while working for OSA because while it can be enlightening, it’s also quite painful.

Coming to terms with being and acting like someone that I now consider despicable is tough on the soul.

When I read crap like “you can take the girl out of OSA but can’t take OSA out of the girl,” as a response to my sometimes harsh criticisms of others, I feel like reaching out across the intertubes and smacking them upside their head.

Since waking up from the 27 year koolaid induced trance, I’ve decided to
step in and speak up when I see a bully. My way of handling bullies may be different from yours. My way is to stand up and call them out and I may not even be nice about it. I’m certainly not nice to the cult when I talk about them and I don’t see why I should be.

For the record:

The completion lists.

The comp lists have several purposes and Kristi and I talked for hours and hours about this.

The comp list have always been interesting to many because it’s a way for those of us that are out to have some sort of idea what was going on in an org. Anyone who was ever in management can look at those list and see
things that are going on that most outsiders would not understand. They can
be somewhat interpreted.

The lists also give an idea of expansion or lack there of.

The lists give you a bit of data of what is happening with friends and family inside the cult.

But most importantly, once the list is fed into HORTON – Holder of Records Tallier of Numbers—the program that organizes and computes the lists on the Truth about Scientology site, all kinds of good results can occur.

http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/source/source208.html

The lists and this site were design to assist in the wake up of those still in.

The idea of this website was not just to provide media and researchers with info on cultist behaving badly, but it was to provide a safe place for Scientologists still in the cult to find.

The idea was that when a scio did a search of their own name, they would find the TAS site and would stay and read some rather mild but truthful data
about the cult.

There’s no talk of Xenu and there’s no pics of a Hubbard buttplug. It’s data on out outpoints, and kr’s and stats. Mild. The idea was that this would cause the scio who found the site with his list of completions as a place to read the truth. Kristi and I decided to not promote this part of our plan because it would give OSA even more reason to try to shut it down. As it turned out OSA failed in all attempts to shut down the TAS site. And they did try, but gave up when they realized that they couldn’t bully Kristi into taking it down and they had no legal grounds to do it.

I bring this up for two reasons. First is because Alanzo recently brought up my project with the comp lists as some sort of PR actions for the cult.

If anyone always believes that than I have a Bridge to sell you.

The other reason, believe it or not, was at that time, it was part of my “effective blow” against the cult. When I started the list project, I was still very much a Scientologist and felt that my activities in contributing to what I consider to be an evil totalitarian cult needed some rectifying. I needed to do something effective and the lists which can be a lot of mindless drudgery of a job, have endless and effective uses against the cult. I’ve been accused in the past of promoting Scientology with these lists, but hey, people are gonna think what they are gonna think and I just can’t worry about that, because I have way to much other shit in my life to deal with.


I digress. Let me scroll back up and find the point I was trying to make.

Ah yes, bullies.

Bullies work with both fear and lies and cause massive drama. It’s part of the whole bully thing and I dislike drama as much or more than I dislike bullies.

Somewhere along the line I decided was I not going to ever allow myself to be bullied again. And whether you want to believe it or not, I generally try to be pleasant and helpful when dealing with other ex’s. The only time I go off
and start getting grouchy is when I see someone being bringing lies, drama
and general faggotry to a subject that I have a facts about.

I know some of you don’t like my style, but honestly, I’m not going to change it. This is a post to a message board, not a presentation to the APA (which I’ve done several times and didn’t swear once!)

I had pretty much stopped reading ESMB except for maybe a couple of threads that I had interest in, but most of my reading and posting has been
over on WWP which is a pretty rough and tumble kind of place and has humor and interests in more of an activist format rather than here which is more of a ex support board, and an excellent one at that.

I hardly would ever read zinj or alanzo’s post but occasionally did just to see what was going on. I was no fan of Zinj or Alanzo for many reasons but also because I thought both of them were rather arrogant and looked down their noses at me and others. I commented on this to at least Zinj on one or two occasions.

I didn’t really follow the Zinj/Alanzo ban that happened a few months ago
But did think it was interesting that Zinj finally wore out his welcome which he has a history of doing. Alanzo I always thought was a troll. Meaning he would troll the group with sometimes outrageous but playful statements in his attempts to enlighten people to his point of view.

When Alanzo returned from his ban a few weeks ago he became, what I consider to be an energy sucking drama queen completely with tall tales and outright lies.

I will cop to the fact that I really don’t get guys like that and just tend to dismiss them as “retarded”. Alanzo had an agenda to get to the ‘TRUTH” and expose it. But for whatever reason he could not go at it straight on and state it. He had to create all kinds of drama and ask others to tell what they know about back channel discussion rather than come out and say:

Hey look I had this conversation with Emma, and she asked me not to repeat it, but since I’m a self righteous dude, I just have to talk about it. Emma said that Mike Rinder said that Zinj is an OSA Op. What do you guys think.

OK if Alanzo had just said that, then Emma could have replied with what she actually told Alanzo, because Alanzo in fact twists what you say, so Emma could have straighten it out, then discussion could have occurred and ended
with whatever conclusions people want to make after hearing all the sides and opinions.

But NO. Alanzo is not a straight shooting guy. He came in with all kinds of implications and insinuations and would not answer questions but expected everyone else to answer his questions.

Then when you did answer his question, he’d come back at you like a member of the Retards of America Debating Club, and twist your words
and accuse you of stating things you never said or even thought.

At that point it’s like Wot? Are you fucking kidding me? There’s no use trying to talk to this guy. There’s no discussion here. He’s lying, twisting and
causing crazy osaosaosa accusations to fly without any evidence other than
connecting dots and “knowing”.

And I’m not going to humor him, play nice, try to cajole him into understanding me, while he outright lies and spreads lies and confusion into a group of people who are trying to recover from years of lies and deceit.

If you are going to take on liars and bullies then you have to not be afraid of the consequences of doing this.

I’m not afraid of someone calling me OSA, I’m not afraid of people disliking me. I’m not afraid of others thoughts or words and I’m willing to stand up
and call it as I see it and risk being banned myself. I won’t allow fear to control me anymore.

Enough.

And so all that tl;dr is just to let you know that yes, I’m an EX OSA retard, and truly apologize for that and have done my best to make up for damages done, but that don’t mean I’m going to sit back and let retards spread fear and lie about shit I know about


Trifle:

And now I am going to make a Trifle for Easter dessert.

 

[SomeGuy]

Trifle:

And now I am going to make a Trifle for Easter dessert.

My recent development of type 2 shakes it's angry fist at you.

As to your "amends project", I say keep on keeping on and if they can't take a joke, fuck em. (as in people need to grow a thicker skin, but then I have been known to communicate in similar terms)

 

[Good twin]

My recent development of type 2 shakes it's angry fist at you.

As to your "amends project", I say keep on keeping on and if they can't take a joke, fuck em.

...and I am inventing a gluten free version in my head right now. The former OSA retard has inspired me.

 

[Lulu Belle]

Anyone who thinks there is anything even slightly sinister about ex-OSA staff has never met Dan Garvin.

 

[uniquemand]

Defining rules based on individual cases is bad practice.