I don't blame the CofS......

[FinallyMe]

I can't admit to having personal experience that creates a heavy opinion or emotion at all. I was "in" from 1971 through 1982, on staff for 3 years, and really experienced no distressing events at all. I never even heard of Miscavige until I found this Board, which I found while googling just out of curiousity - not with any real interest or mission in mind. Have no idea who Rinder and Rathbun are, other than the descriptions on ESMB. Never heard of Lisa McPherson or any of the other "why are they dead" people. The people with whom I am still in touch are in exactly the same frame of mind - we simply left - no terrifically bad experiences. My objection now to the C of S is based solely on what I have read online, relatively recently.

FWIW, I did send a writeup regarding the Public Benefit Test, over my own name, and it was received -- but because I'm not an Aussie, it was not made part of the record and was not made available online for anyone else to find or read, so you can't judge how many people spoke up by looking at the submissions listed online.

I don't disagree with Carmel that it would be very helpful for all those who can, and all those who have something to say, to speak up. But not all of us have anything to say, other than hearsay.

 

[bts2free]

I can't admit to having personal experience that creates a heavy opinion or emotion at all. I was "in" from 1971 through 1982, on staff for 3 years, and really experienced no distressing events at all. ...

FinallyMe, Your name suggests that you went through a time where you weren't you and now finally are. Is that why you left Scientology? I'd say that that would be a distressful personal experience or event. As well, I was on staff for a year before I joined the SO, and would say that most of that experience was even more stressful than some of the stuff I went through in the SO and I was at Gold for 10 years. I agree, there are those who get into Scientology and don't really delve in. They remain on the fringes and never really see what's going on on the inside. Don't really participate much. Those people IN Scientology are labeled "dilettantes." I'm not saying you were one at all, especially having been on staff for 3 years. I'm just surprised you have absolutely nothing to say in terms of a stressful event while being involved. Makes me wonder what happened for you to leave. Leaving is good!

 

[Zinjifar]

However, FM was faced with a quandry when leaving. She really really really didn't want to lose her sister and mother, which seemed likely.

Happy joy joy! It all turned out OK; contrary to Scientology predictions and intents. That's Scientology in a nutshell.

Zinj

 

[bts2free]

P.S. - I wasn't saying that being a "dilettante" is a bad thing either. I really wish I had been one of those!

 

[VaD]

I tried to tell them but they wouldn't listen.
I tried to show them but they wouldn't look.

Instead, they would tell me to "do Conditions", "disconnect from SPs", "write O/Ws", "read LRH"...

Sounds familiar?

***

My position and solution is not to have a problem with/about CoS and with/about Scilons (unless they force their "reality" onto me).
I have no problems with existence of dedicated Scios and CoS just like I have no problems with existence of other cultists and cults. I'm not going to dig deep into any cult to show them their fallacies and weirdnesses (as the world at large sees them).
Such time-and-efforts-spending doesn't give me perspective/vision of "having a good time". There is no pleasure - not in the process. Rarely, in the end.
Zinj is right: worthwhile is rather awareness than "activism" (While I acknowledge Anonymous movement activism has done way more than prior to it solitary and segmental efforts, whilу being jewels in themselves).

So, I'm not going to beat the drum to show Scilons and CoS how wrong they have been.
Sooner or later, people WILL come to grips with Reality and see that they have fed their powers to something that has nothing behind it (besides their own illusions and delusions that they had themselves built up, and attributed them to Scn and LRH).

Something like that...

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Which is more effective? Resistance or Knowledge.

JUST SAY NO
to scientology​

JUST SAY KNOW
to scientology​

ANSWER: Both work but the latter one (applied generously in advance of the former) is the end-of-the-endless-crazy-cult coup de grace.

 

[Zinjifar]

Just say:

Prosecute
Subpoena
Interrogate
Discover
Disclose

Scientology is too evil to allow to slide back under its rock. This may be our first and last chance to demand *answers* to all the questions.

Reform alone is not enough.

Zinj

 

[clamicide]

The fact is that it's frustrating. The evil of Scientology is *so* fucking obvious that it's enough to make you tear your hair out when people can't or refuse to see it.

But, eventually you learn to deal with the frustration and just keep the pressure up on your lonesome. The 'critical community' has gone through numerous pushes for 'activism'; all of them have been counter productive. Scientology requires awareness; not 'activism'.

If we could vote to flip a switch, I'd be in the forefront haranguing people to flip the goddam switch already. But, it doesn't work like that.

Zinj

Well, once you wake up, sure it's obvious. Before then, good luck. It's damn hard to say no--it doesn't even feel like an option. And it looks ridiculous from the outside. It doesn't just happen in Scientology. If you look at some of the experiments and studies done in the arena of social psychology, you can find plenty of examples of conformity and obedience that seem shocking. Folks wind up doing all sorts of things that they would swear they would never do.

I think that when you first come out, hearing someone tell you to just wake up and say no, it can make some folks bristle. For years, within the cult, you can be constantly told to just "knock off your case", that you can be completely in control of all your feelings. So, if you've been sitting on all this held-in fear or whatever, and it's suddenly very real to you-- and you get the message that you are supposed to stand up and "be cause"--it doesn't matter what the intention is behind it. Although I understand, for those of us who had a hard time some days "keeping the case off", to feel like we're failures again at being effect of our fears--well, it kind of sucks. For those who can do it, dang. Wonderful. I don't think everyone can just pop out to that state of mind instantly, though.

 

[VaD]

Just say:

Prosecute
Subpoena
Interrogate
Discover
Disclose

...... [some cult] is too evil to allow to slide back under its rock. This may be our first and last chance to demand *answers* to all the questions.

Reform alone is not enough.

Zinj

Scientoloy is *not* the only cult on this planet.
I subscribe to being aware of cults, sects and other political movements.
I don't subscribe to fighting the cults.
If not Scientology then Mormons. If not Mormons then Moonies. If not Moonies then Amway. If not Amway then Herbalife...

Cults have been here before we were born. They will be here after we die. If not one then another.
If not cults then religions (to me, they are the same thing - a cult but on a larger scale).

Problem is not in cult. Problem is inside each person's head. Unless he starts to think of his own SOLUTIONS, he is liable to get into those who offer him "solutons".

Neither you nor I are able to change that trait of human beings.

The only thing is to come up to being aware of the fact that all solutions to all problems are inside (and not someplace else).

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

The Know to Blow Scale
​

Blow
No
Know
"Know"
Flow Dough​

How it works: Scientologist enters at bottom of scale and attempts to stay at the bottom while Reality attempts to get them to Q and A.

 

[VaD]

This might be a great accompaniment to Carmel's OP.

Moreove, this video has been watched by more than 117 Million (!) people all over the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5-yKhDd64s

 

[FinallyMe]

However, FM was faced with a quandry when leaving. She really really really didn't want to lose her sister and mother, which seemed likely.
--snip--
Zinj

Actually, that would be Finally Free - not me. I left Scientology after I was locked into a basement room, jammed shoulder to shoulder, and threatened by the Finance Police -- out of the blue, as far as I was concerned. I just had no further contact with it. My time prior to Scientology was MUCH worse - regular physical beatings and mental abuse - my staff experience was much easier, in fact, than some of my later wog jobs.

I can't say what would have happened if I had been "in" during the Miscavige years - I suspect I would then have something to talk about, based on what I have heard from ESMB folk.

 

[Zinjifar]

Actually, that would be Finally Free - not me. I left Scientology after I was locked into a basement room, jammed shoulder to shoulder, and threatened by the Finance Police -- out of the blue, as far as I was concerned

Ooopsie

I think this is the point where Vinnie jumps on me for 'identity confusion'

Zinj

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

I kept getting stuck on your scale Hoaxie:

"Know" - got there some of the time.
Know - spent a lot of time avoiding this.
"Know" - that Sec Check really worked!
Know - how do I get that second mortgage (to pay after-the-fact) for "know"?
"Know" - It's all an illusion.
No - It's not an illusion - it's real and I'm fucked!
Blow - "99 bottles of beer on the wall..." Ah......

There's one "graduate" level on your scale that decades of research has led me to break through where I'm certain that I'm NOT THE ONLY ONE in this sector who discovered it.

It's:

Go - As in "Let's go pay off that f***ing second mortgage". Or, let's go to the next raid!

 

[Commander Birdsong]

hi carmel

always a great pleasure to read your posts. it's a hell of a challenge to resist the abuses of the church. those who are in are bound by a force more powerful than classical brainwashing, their own agreement consciously and willingly given. it's a brilliantly engineered context because until you go high (or deep) in the church you can just stand up and walk away at any time. as all of us did. then if you are out you have no right to tell them what to do with their shop. if you are in and thus have a right to improve the ethics of your own group you can't build sufficient power to make a large difference. many people on this board were of a noble and refined personal ethos while in, often succeded in overcoming ignorance greed incompetence and malice, finally realized they were only greasing the frying pan they were being cooked in and jumped into the fire. now whatever we say, CoS can just point at our burn marks and call us ugly.

well,

we'll see about that

won't we?

you're a true heart carmel, and tougher than a two dollar steak. we shall rock on.

 

[TG1]

always a great pleasure to read your posts. it's a hell of a challenge to resist the abuses of the church. those who are in are bound by a force more powerful than classical brainwashing, their own agreement consciously and willingly given. it's a brilliantly engineered context because until you go high (or deep) in the church you can just stand up and walk away at any time. as all of us did. then if you are out you have no right to tell them what to do with their shop. if you are in and thus have a right to improve the ethics of your own group you can't build sufficient power to make a large difference. many people on this board were of a noble and refined personal ethos while in, often succeded in overcoming ignorance greed incompetence and malice, finally realized they were only greasing the frying pan they were being cooked in and jumped into the fire. now whatever we say, CoS can just point at our burn marks and call us ugly.

Wow, Commander Birdsong -- you're quite the philosopher, and a poetical one at that. Well said.

TG1

 

[freethinker]

Carmel is right in that the church only gets its power from the people it has in its ranks and legal systems that don't really work for the individual.

Unless I'm miostaken the result of the inquiry was incredibly positive, so what does it matter the number of admissions accepted.

If they had accepted a million and decided against the PBT that would be crushing, but to decide in favor of it with so few is a very positive result.

The progress on the deconstruction of the church is slow but always moving closer to that end.

When Anonymous came on the scene it spurred new life and many positive things ocurred as a result even though it has slowed.

There will be future ocurrances that will advance the decline of Scientology even faster. so it is happening and will happen .

The next big one could be right around the corner.

 

[Carmel]

I didn't mean my op to come across as "let's stop the CofS". It's not where I was coming from, but I can see how it could be taken that way.

I got a nasty reminder last night of how the CofS has some people by the balls. I hate it. It saddens me. It's a nasty web. Seeing people caught up in it and living in fear on a continual basis is frustrating. I know that many have to live it and play it out, but I believe that many are letting their own *fear*, as opposed to what the CofS could do to them, rule their lives. It's hard to watch.

 

[Panda Termint]

I agree. It's VERY hard to witness and not, at the very least, try to do something about it.

 

[Osiris]

Carmel is right....

For 20 years I ignored the junk mail, avoided the Telephone calls from Scientology telephone numbers, & changed my home addresses, just hopping to be rid of them,

But it wasn't till I lost it, & abused the shit out of them "saying no" that they stopped,

I only wish I had acted this way the first week I was there, & I had the feeling something was wrong, (would have saved me three years & lot more)

I also feel sorry for the people still in & future generations who go though it.