I don't blame the CofS......

[Good twin]

I just think each of us has to make our own decisions and choices based on what we feel is important to us. I know people who are out and still "PR" folks that are in. You may not think they have good reaon, or that it is just intimidation and giving power to the cult. But I say it's not for anyone to judge. Such decisions are often complex.

I had very specific reasons to stay under the radar for the first year or so that I was out. I got through my own barriers and made my own decisions about what I would say and when and to who. I don't regret that. I don't feel I was giving the church power, or maybe I was. But it was a one step at a time approach to gaining my independance.

The reason I felt comfortable telling my story and sharing my evolution as an Ex here on ESMB, was because I felt I could say whatever I want and not be pressured to say or do what someone else decided was the way to go. I love sharing with all of you. I admire each of your journeys and learn from all of them.

But it's important to me to decide for myself and do what I feel good about. Even if I choose to sometimes hang onto my fears and insecurities. Even if I choose to keep walking in the middle of the road or sittin on the fence. Everyone has that right. Not being ready to tell all or face everything is not wrong. For some people it just is.

I sure don't see it as black and white. My experience in the cult was not all bad. It was good and bad and sometimes ugly. Sometimes I feel like talking about it and sometimes I don't. But I sure don't feel obligated. Don't we all have a lot to learn? I sure don't feel good about passing judgement on how anyone processes the cult experience.

I'm no longer an expert on what is sane or rational or appropriate behavior. I gave that up when I left the cult. I see no reason to judge what other exes are doing. I see value in all viewpoints. Thank you all for sharing yours.

 

[Carmel]

I just think each of us has to make our own decisions and choices based on what we feel is important to us. I know people who are out and still "PR" folks that are in. You may not think they have good reaon, or that it is just intimidation and giving power to the cult. But I say it's not for anyone to judge. Such decisions are often complex.

I had very specific reasons to stay under the radar for the first year or so that I was out. I got through my own barriers and made my own decisions about what I would say and when and to who. I don't regret that. I don't feel I was giving the church power, or maybe I was. But it was a one step at a time approach to gaining my independance.

The reason I felt comfortable telling my story and sharing my evolution as an Ex here on ESMB, was because I felt I could say whatever I want and not be pressured to say or do what someone else decided was the way to go. I love sharing with all of you. I admire each of your journeys and learn from all of them.

But it's important to me to decide for myself and do what I feel good about. Even if I choose to sometimes hang onto my fears and insecurities. Even if I choose to keep walking in the middle of the road or sittin on the fence. Everyone has that right. Not being ready to tell all or face everything is not wrong. For some people it just is.

I sure don't see it as black and white. My experience in the cult was not all bad. It was good and bad and sometimes ugly. Sometimes I feel like talking about it and sometimes I don't. But I sure don't feel obligated. Don't we all have a lot to learn? I sure don't feel good about passing judgement on how anyone processes the cult experience.

I'm no longer an expert on what is sane or rational or appropriate behavior. I gave that up when I left the cult. I see no reason to judge what other exes are doing. I see value in all viewpoints. Thank you all for sharing yours.

I'm with you on all of this. Many have good reason to stay under the radar, and I have advised many to do so, or at least gotten them to look at consequences if they didn't. This is not the issue though.

It's just heartbreaking to see or know so many who have nothing to lose and everything to gain by breaking free of the spell which the CofS has on them. And, it's my opinion that so many being in this position is enabling the CofS. It's a catch 22. I see it as a cumulative hurdle which can't seem to be broken by a few individuals, when many more individuals are contributing to keeping it in place.

So many are affected. I feel for them. They are "out", but they are still trapped by the mental anguish which their fear creates. It's my opinion that no matter how much the CofS walls will crumble, this hurdle has to be overcome by each individual who is affected. I don't see the CofS ever stopping this sort of manipulation and *hold* that it has over people. It's something that only those affected can change, IMO, and it's not something that the *CofS* is permitting to persist.

I'm not referring to being under the radar or not........I'm referring to people who don't see that the answer to the church having a hold over them, is with themselves, and not something which the destruction of the CofS would fix, but rather something that could contribute to causing the demise of the CofS.

It's a tough one, and it's not black and white, but I think it's something those in fear of the CofS should look at and work towards dealing with.

 

[MrNobody]

Warning: Possibly unpopular opinion ahead!

Carmel, short version: Harden the fuck up!

Long version: I'm sure you're doing your best to help as many people as possible, but you need to accept that nobody can do more than his/her best. It would end up in self-destruction if you tried, and what kind of help would THAT be to anyone?

The other thing is: These people need to do exactly what you and most of the other EXes have done: Realize that they have to get out of there. Realize that it can't go on the way it does. This they have to do themselves, the fact that you realized this for you did and does help you, but only you.

When I see an addict disappear into a dark back alley after I offered him help, I just shrug it off: "Pffft. He isn't down enough yet. He still needs to realize that he needs help. Anyway, my job is done for now." In earlier days I found such a scenery very frustrating, but not anymore. Trying to help people who don't even realize that they need it, is pointless. Telling people that they just need to stand up for themselves and walk out of their misery is pointless too, because they know that already - they just haven't grown the balls yet.

So all you can do is plant some seeds and let them know that help is available if needed and wanted. If your help is not needed and wanted, just shrug it off - there'll always be another day with new opportunities.

BTW: You surely know about the tremendous group pressure these people are under, and you know about this ugly sword called "Your eternity and the eternity of this universe and whatnot". Ridiculous crap from my point of view, but for a true believer, not so much.

Jus' my 0.02

 

[Nicole]

Now I am speaking only for myself.

It exist different ways to harm Co$. One is to go with everything into the public including the name. First I wanted to go this way. But I am having no evidences. So I decide other.

The second way is to use a legal one this is the way I choose. I informed the authorities about everything I knew. I am there not Anonymous and if they need me in front of the court etc. I am there. We are in Germany well organized against Co$.

At the moment is my personal protest to research, write and publish. That happen Anonymous.

 

[Lynn Fountain Campbell]

Just say:

Prosecute
Subpoena
Interrogate
Discover
Disclose

Scientology is too evil to allow to slide back under its rock. This may be our first and last chance to demand *answers* to all the questions.

Reform alone is not enough.

Zinj

Reform?!?! Reform is not only "not enough." Reform is not possible. If they canceled all the policies that made the abuses possible, they wouldn't be able to "keep scientology working."

Lynn

 

[MrNobody]

Reform?!?! Reform is not only "not enough." Reform is not possible. If they canceled all the policies that made the abuses possible, they wouldn't be able to "keep scientology working."

Lynn

I'm not interested in "keep scientology working", and why should I? I've never been "in" and I don't see anything worth my time or my money in what the cult has to offer, so this is just a unrefined thought: Why cancel the policies that make abuses possible? Why not add policies that make abuses impossible? Also, AFAIK, there is no policy that forbids reasonable work hours (e.g. 40 hours/week) and a fair compensation for the staffers, or is it?

Oh, OK, these new rules wouldn't be from "source". Stupid me...

 

[Freeminds]

Good call, Carmel!

I understand people's reluctance to speak out, given what the Guardian's Office and particularly the OSA have done to critics.

It's getting harder to stamp out dissent, though. You know how the Whac-a-mole game gets harder as time goes on? OSA's job is like that, and they're losing.

Did you know that over 1,100 former members have now gone on the record about the abuses of Scientology? (They're listed here.) The notion that there are many more people who have left but who haven't yet spoken out may be frustrating for you, Carmel... but it's also causing a lot of sleepless nights for the bad guys. DM doesn't have the manpower to silence all the critics anymore, and he's rapidly squandering the resources too.

With each day, it becomes safer to oppose CofS - and more necessary.

 

[Good twin]

I'm with you on all of this. Many have good reason to stay under the radar, and I have advised many to do so, or at least gotten them to look at consequences if they didn't. This is not the issue though.

It's just heartbreaking to see or know so many who have nothing to lose and everything to gain by breaking free of the spell which the CofS has on them. And, it's my opinion that so many being in this position is enabling the CofS. It's a catch 22. I see it as a cumulative hurdle which can't seem to be broken by a few individuals, when many more individuals are contributing to keeping it in place.

So many are affected. I feel for them. They are "out", but they are still trapped by the mental anguish which their fear creates. It's my opinion that no matter how much the CofS walls will crumble, this hurdle has to be overcome by each individual who is affected. I don't see the CofS ever stopping this sort of manipulation and *hold* that it has over people. It's something that only those affected can change, IMO, and it's not something that the *CofS* is permitting to persist.

I'm not referring to being under the radar or not........I'm referring to people who don't see that the answer to the church having a hold over them, is with themselves, and not something which the destruction of the CofS would fix, but rather something that could contribute to causing the demise of the CofS.

It's a tough one, and it's not black and white, but I think it's something those in fear of the CofS should look at and work towards dealing with.

Oh I think I understand now. Yes. People live with their delusions and while pointing their finger at the boogey man cling to the safety of their hiding place. I think it's okay. Sometimes people need excuses for their own inadequecies. And I don't even mean that it's wrong.

Some give power to a church and use it as an excuse to stay in a situation that they complain about endlessly. This is not just true of Scientologists. Some people stay in bad or loveless marriages "for the sake of the children" and never face the fact that the children are sufferring because of it. And yes, quite often they complain and blame the partner that they could walk away from with little or no consequences. For some it's a "pain in the ass" job that keeps them in thier pretend trap.

I guess the point is that now that we are no longer part of the mental, spiritual and emotional "integrity" club, known as the cult of Scientology, we are sometimes painfully aware of just how frail and irrational the human condition really is.

Carmel, my lovely and sparkly heart friend, no one is whole. People have their weaknesses and delusions and irrational excuses for problems that are imaginary. People cling to their emotional crutches and allow themselves to be drug back into their own sorrow and pain. And sadly people give power to much of what would destroy them.

Here's my humble opinion. After spending a half a lifetime (or more) saving the world, it's hard to let go of the need to do something grand. It's hard to find a purpose that is fullfilling and meaningful. But it's even harder to adjust to being lazy and weak and sometimes stupid and uninformed. We each have to find some kind of peace after taking off our cult colored glasses, and sometimes we might even look through those lenses again once in a while because they are familiar and strangely comforting.

I no longer expect to be be able to help solve the problems of everyone I meet, or everyone I know, or even everyone I love. I'm just learning to love them as much as I can including their problems and quirks and loose screws. I actually can admire the defense mechanism of keeping one's head in the sand or pretending that you parents ruined your chances at happiness. I do this because no matter how absurd people's behavior is, there is still almost always something good and pure and lovable at their very core. There is still so much to be shared and there is still a place where joy can blossom.

Yep they/we give power to the cult. I intentionally "flowed power" to the cult for three decades. I might have been giving power to some other delusion if I hadn't found Scientology. Hell I'm probably responsible for global warming and a fucked up economy too.

Exploring some of the other sparkly stuff on this planet is interesting and fun. Looking at life and the human condition as a former cult member gives it a unique twist.

Just like you hate to see people suffer or unhappy, it breaks my heart to see you upset. Tonight let's make an effort to reconnect with the joy that is in us and let that be what fills our hearts. It's all good.

​

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Posted by Carmel

I didn't mean my op to come across as "let's stop the CofS". It's not where I was coming from, but I can see how it could be taken that way.

I got a nasty reminder last night of how the CofS has some people by the balls. I hate it. It saddens me. It's a nasty web. Seeing people caught up in it and living in fear on a continual basis is frustrating. I know that many have to live it and play it out, but I believe that many are letting their own *fear*, as opposed to what the CofS could do to them, rule their lives. It's hard to watch.

You are right.

It ended in tears (predictably) for me, when I slashed and burned the web I felt I was trapped in for decades ... but I can't say I regret it as the feeling of taking my life fully back was worth it and I am now quietly discovering who I really am (no pun intended) as a result.

Saying no is easy once you open your mouth and start to speak and the effect is immediate (good and bad).

I will never judge anyone for how they choose to handle (or not handle) but telling the cofs to go to hell is a very good feeling ... and it certainly won't end badly for everyone that chooses to do so.

Sadly, I have had to face the fact that the people I lost as a result of my stance towards scientology were perhaps not the people I once thought they were and I am probably better off without them, though it took me a few years to accept that.

I have certainly hardened the fuck up in certain areas in recent years but I have softened even more, due to dumping the cult rubbish that I once lived by, and due to now being myself instead of being a scientologist.

 

[HappyGirl]

Carmel, I took your original post the way you meant it, and that's what I thought when I was IN. I tried to get others around me to "admit" to the wrong things I saw so I would have a bigger voice. But the responses I got were discouraging, and there's policies like only one person can sign a petition. I remember once doing my own personal survey where I asked fellow Scn's if they believed in god. I found it very interesting that the answers were all "yes." Maybe that was the one "dynamic" we were allowed freedom on. Anyway, the only way to protest is to leave, and since there is a mass exodus, what you wanted in your original post is pretty much happening anyway. They are speaking up by taking their voices away from the whole crumbling pile of poo aka CoS. And you had a big hand in that. I think you should just give yourself a giant pat on the back and relax in the knowledge that what you want is not only already happening but exploding.

Oh, and I had to add, RPX - I thoroughly enjoyed your posts!!

 

[freethinker]

Exactly!

Reform?!?! Reform is not only "not enough." Reform is not possible. If they canceled all the policies that made the abuses possible, they wouldn't be able to "keep scientology working."

Lynn

 

[Commander Birdsong]

the incorrigible weirdo speaks

Reform?!?! Reform is not only "not enough." Reform is not possible. If they canceled all the policies that made the abuses possible, they wouldn't be able to "keep scientology working."

Lynn

begging humbly to differ cherished and respected former staffmate, for more than thirty years, homeless mutilated and bereft, i have worked many small wonders for many good people with what i know of tek. and while i was training in san francisco and while working in DC i saw very little to criticise in either the HGC or the academy. no CoS would not be able to apply HCOPL "KSW" as they now do, but dn and scn could surely keep working quite well w/o the abuses

 

[Carmel]

Oh I think I understand now. Yes. People live with their delusions and while pointing their finger at the boogey man cling to the safety of their hiding place. I think it's okay. Sometimes people need excuses for their own inadequecies. And I don't even mean that it's wrong.

Some give power to a church and use it as an excuse to stay in a situation that they complain about endlessly. This is not just true of Scientologists. Some people stay in bad or loveless marriages "for the sake of the children" and never face the fact that the children are sufferring because of it. And yes, quite often they complain and blame the partner that they could walk away from with little or no consequences. For some it's a "pain in the ass" job that keeps them in thier pretend trap.

I guess the point is that now that we are no longer part of the mental, spiritual and emotional "integrity" club, known as the cult of Scientology, we are sometimes painfully aware of just how frail and irrational the human condition really is.

Carmel, my lovely and sparkly heart friend, no one is whole. People have their weaknesses and delusions and irrational excuses for problems that are imaginary. People cling to their emotional crutches and allow themselves to be drug back into their own sorrow and pain. And sadly people give power to much of what would destroy them.

Here's my humble opinion. After spending a half a lifetime (or more) saving the world, it's hard to let go of the need to do something grand. It's hard to find a purpose that is fullfilling and meaningful. But it's even harder to adjust to being lazy and weak and sometimes stupid and uninformed. We each have to find some kind of peace after taking off our cult colored glasses, and sometimes we might even look through those lenses again once in a while because they are familiar and strangely comforting.

I no longer expect to be be able to help solve the problems of everyone I meet, or everyone I know, or even everyone I love. I'm just learning to love them as much as I can including their problems and quirks and loose screws. I actually can admire the defense mechanism of keeping one's head in the sand or pretending that you parents ruined your chances at happiness. I do this because no matter how absurd people's behavior is, there is still almost always something good and pure and lovable at their very core. There is still so much to be shared and there is still a place where joy can blossom.

Yep they/we give power to the cult. I intentionally "flowed power" to the cult for three decades. I might have been giving power to some other delusion if I hadn't found Scientology. Hell I'm probably responsible for global warming and a fucked up economy too.

Exploring some of the other sparkly stuff on this planet is interesting and fun. Looking at life and the human condition as a former cult member gives it a unique twist.

Just like you hate to see people suffer or unhappy, it breaks my heart to see you upset. Tonight let's make an effort to reconnect with the joy that is in us and let that be what fills our hearts. It's all good.

View attachment 2959​

Yep, you're on!

I chilled on it all yesterday......Till the next time I get all hot under the collar, anyway.

 

[Illegal Alien]

To quote you Carmel,

"When you shut up and say nothing for fear of consequences, you enable the CofS
- When you don't act for fear of repercussions, you enable the CofS
- When you PR BS your scio mates as to where you stand, you enable the CofS"

Good on you

THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT

 

[Panda Termint]

Agreed!

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Agreed!

Wot Panda said ...