The Phoenix Lectures

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Pure evil?

My word ITYIWT you must have lived a wonderfully sheltered life.

Benjamin Spock produced a watershed change in child rearing for the post war babyboomers

Are you in any way aware of how commonly serious corporal punishment was inflicted on children both privately and in public schools? Large numbers of Elron's contemporaries would not even consider locking a child up for two days to be child abuse

Click on dog to see him digging a deeper hole...

 

[Bill]

Please...

I certainly don't endorse putting children in chain lockers

Nor do I endorse labeling Elron a sociopath.

The story of ...

Wait... Would that be the famous Elron Elray?!!! The amazing OT over on "Target Two" who communicated telepathically with "Captain Bill" (but only when Bill was dressed up as a woman)!! THAT Elron?

Well of course! Elron Elray isn't a sociopath, he's wonderful!!! Can you dress up as a woman and talk to Elron as well?? How exciting!

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Hey thanks Tobbit

No I didn't see anything near that at FCDC which was a "Sea Org org". The closest was when Expanded Dianetics was released as a special service for Continental orgs. Foxy Rebecca Sweigart and I were chosen to be the first two XD auditors and her first PC got a refund. A "chain locker" was set up with a rusty chain she was put in "liability" and it was her task to take a wire brush to it. I wasn't crazy about that but I said nothing, after all it was harsh but far short of odious.

And then!

Two days later a bright lively Svensk Sea Ogre named Ulf Rehnquist showed up from New York and canceled our dinky little chain locker and apologized to the assembled staff for it having happened in the first place.

'Twas different 'round my way back in the day my friend...

First of all, for our new readers, and don’t mind me if I wax a little philosophic here, a chain locker is the enclosure where the anchor chain is retracted into on a ship. Let’s think this through shall we. The anchor and chain sit and drag on the ocean floor. All ocean floors aren’t pristine like a National Geographic special. Harbors are highly contaminated with oil, pollution, bilge dumpings, sewage, there’s lots of organic material - you get the idea. And the chains get rusty. So here’s this room with all this decaying soup and a topping of tetanus inducing rust with a dash of lead based paint and cold damp salt crusty air blowing through the chain hole and at some point LRH looks around in there and what comes to his mind? Why, this would be an excellent place to put people with nothing but a bucket to shit and piss in.

So here he sets these precedents for behavior and people find themselves in this insane Catch-22 world doing this crazy shit to people, watching it being done or letting it be done to themselves. There will be moments when they kind of snap out of it and say, “Stop, this is out PR or if it isn’t fun it isn’t Scientology”. Maybe they have been through enough of it or seen enough of it to recognize it for what it is and they act on their correct, if not residual, moral compass. They may revert back to LRHism and not act another time and then they may act sanely again later. It isn’t a straight line. I’ve seen people in charge creating this abuse in one instance and in another instance at the same time react completely rationally and stop something else.

But this was a world of LRH’s design. I think his insane compulsions were often checked by other people from the bottom all the way up to Mary Sue but that doesn’t mean those same people didn’t contribute to the insanity or not stop it at other times. Curiously we see how a lot of people who were put in charge of doing this crazy shit are later declared SPs with big golden rods issued on them. Well maybe they woke up and that was the problem. Often they were just used as the fall guy when the optics got too bad.

I'm not familiar with this FCDC story but the time period you are describing here does sound like it was fully during LRH’s reign. What’s happened after he died can’t be neatly isolated from LRH. This is all Scientology and part of exiting Scientology is working your way back and forth between these completely opposing rationalizations of abuse. I don’t think people understand in general how much this is a part of human nature. We shouldn’t be too cocky. If you haven’t really been tested like this you may not know how you will behave in a Stockholming type situation or how it can effect you much later. I think some Scientologists were relatively “lightly” Stockholmed, for lack of a better term, and maybe they stay in the zone longer but kind of in a lower grade whereas if someone is heavily Stockholmed in some cases maybe something snaps and they see the light and can let go quicker or more completely.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

First of all, for our new readers, and don’t mind me if I wax a little philosophic here, a chain locker is the enclosure where the anchor chain is retracted into on a ship. Let’s think this through shall we. The anchor and chain sit and drag on the ocean floor. All ocean floors aren’t pristine like a National Geographic special. Harbors are highly contaminated with oil, pollution, bilge dumpings, sewage, there’s lots of organic material - you get the idea. And the chains get rusty. So here’s this room with all this decaying soup and a topping of tetanus inducing rust with a dash of lead based paint and cold damp salt crusty air blowing through the chain hole and at some point LRH looks around in there and what comes to his mind? Why, this would be an excellent place to put people with nothing but a bucket to shit and piss in.

So here he sets these precedents for behavior and people find themselves in this insane Catch-22 world doing this crazy shit to people, watching it being done or letting it be done to themselves. There will be moments when they kind of snap out of it and say, “Stop, this is out PR or if it isn’t fun it isn’t Scientology”. Maybe they have been through enough of it or seen enough of it to recognize it for what it is and they act on their correct, if not residual, moral compass. They may revert back to LRHism and not act another time and then they may act sanely again later. It isn’t a straight line. I’ve seen people in charge creating this abuse in one instance and in another instance at the same time react completely rationally and stop something else.

But this was a world of LRH’s design. I think his insane compulsions were often checked by other people from the bottom all the way up to Mary Sue but that doesn’t mean those same people didn’t contribute to the insanity or not stop it at other times. Curiously we see how a lot of people who were put in charge of doing this crazy shit are later declared SPs with big golden rods issued on them. Well maybe they woke up and that was the problem. Often they were just used as the fall guy when the optics got too bad.

I'm not familiar with this FCDC story but the time period you are describing here does sound like it was fully during LRH’s reign. What’s happened after he died can’t be neatly isolated from LRH. This is all Scientology and part of exiting Scientology is working your way back and forth between these completely opposing rationalizations of abuse. I don’t think people understand in general how much this is a part of human nature. We shouldn’t be too cocky. If you haven’t really been tested like this you may not know how you will behave in a Stockholming type situation or how it can effect you much later. I think some Scientologists were relatively “lightly” Stockholmed, for lack of a better term, and maybe they stay in the zone longer but kind of in a lower grade whereas if someone is heavily Stockholmed in some cases maybe something snaps and they see the light and can let go quicker or more completely.

Good post Blue. It reminds me of Jon Atack's comment in A Piece Of Blue Sky that it was difficult to comprehend the equanimity with which Scientologists of that time accepted the Ethics Conditions, and that this is remarkable now even to many former Scientologists.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Pure evil?

My word ITYIWT you must have lived a wonderfully sheltered life.

Benjamin Spock produced a watershed change in child rearing for the post war babyboomers

Are you in any way aware of how commonly serious corporal punishment was inflicted on children both privately and in public schools? Large numbers of Elron's contemporaries would not even consider locking a child up for two days to be child abuse.

I think locking a child up in a chain locker would have been considered an act of serious child abuse back then (the late 1960s), just as it would be now. In the UK corporal punishment was legal back then but I'm willing to bet anyone who locked a child up in a chain locker, let alone for two days, would have been prosecuted.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Pure evil?

My word ITYIWT you must have lived a wonderfully sheltered life.

Benjamin Spock produced a watershed change in child rearing for the post war babyboomers

Are you in any way aware of how commonly serious corporal punishment was inflicted on children both privately and in public schools? Large numbers of Elron's contemporaries would not even consider locking a child up for two days to be child abuse

At one extreme, a "wonderfully sheltered life". At the other extreme, a "wonderfully jaded life".

The latter, where (despite spewing humanitarian-sounding values), is where someone would have to reside in order to offer up lame excuses and explanations for Hubbard's sociopathic abuse of small children.

You proudly defend Hubbard and assure one and all that he was not a sadistic madman. Instead you offer up praise for his delusions, lies, fraud and criminality.

Without the slightest sense of good and evil, you willfully turn a blind eye to terrorizing small defenseless children. None of this is allowed to interrupt your grinning and winning--as you continue posting blithely jaded degeneracy.

.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Good post Blue. It reminds me of Jon Atack's comment in A Piece Of Blue Sky that it was difficult to comprehend the equanimity with which Scientologists of that time accepted the Ethics Conditions, and that this is remarkable now even to many former Scientologists.

The Ethics Conditions are Stockholming. What is the end phenomena of conditions? Self denigration, subservience and reconfirmed devotion to the authority enforcing the conditions.

Scientology does teach. There are valuable lessons to be taken away. One of the things it taught me is that people actually say what they think if you pay attention. LRH was no exception. Things like the conditions and Science of Survival are Stockholming manuals. Taken for what they are they are an impressive body of work and it shouldn’t surprise us that people still respect them for their morsels of insight. I suppose there could be college courses for human sexuality based on the works of Caligula or marketing and PR based on the works of Goebbles.

LRH tells us that the goal of life is survival. Well for a victim of Stockholming that is very true. The Stockholmer intuitively knows this. There is a maxim in negotiation that if the other party feels that they may get what they want then you are in a better position to negotiate. You can’t negotiate with someone who doesn’t want anything. LRH then tells us that we adopt the valence or persona of the person or thing that is surviving - this being the Stockholmer. From the perspective of a Stockholmer, the Chart of Human Evaluation makes a lot of sense.
LRH switched back and forth from savior to persecutor, emotionally whipsawing people until they adopt his persona.

His use of “gradients” or gradually boiling the frog is also extremely intuitive. It starts with something as simple as forcing people to define words and reread what he said and nothing else until they agree and anything that doesn’t agree is unacceptable and punished with “flunks” or "cramming". So we can expect people touting the workability of elements of Scientology but from my perspective they are gleaning gems from a very twisted brain washing manual and trying to say it is something else out of a continuing obedience to their Stockholmer.

Now, if we study, apply and disseminate Scientology for what it is, Stockholmology, then from that perspective it is a very valid subject and that is something that should concern people.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Wait... Would that be the famous Elron Elray?!!! The amazing OT over on "Target Two" who communicated telepathically with "Captain Bill" (but only when Bill was dressed up as a woman)!! THAT Elron?

Well of course! Elron Elray isn't a sociopath, he's wonderful!!! Can you dress up as a woman and talk to Elron as well?? How exciting!

Yes...

That's the Elron.

And I am well aware you and the posse would love to brand him as a sociopath.

Bottom line is you can heat the iron to incandescence but you can't get it to his hide.

 

[Bill]

Wait... Would that be the famous Elron Elray?!!! The amazing OT over on "Target Two" who communicated telepathically with "Captain Bill" (but only when Bill was dressed up as a woman)!! THAT Elron?

Yes...
That's the Elron.

And I am well aware you and the posse would love to brand him as a sociopath.

Bottom line is you can heat the iron to incandescence but you can't get it to his hide.

Great! Apparently, you are not aware that "Elron Elray" doesn't exist; is a figment of "Captain Bill's" warped imagination and is really, really stupid thing to believe in. Also, "Elron Elray" isn't Hubbard -- since Hubbard never made it to "OT" himself.

But do tell me, what kind of dress do you wear to talk to "Elron"? Can you post a photo?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

First of all, for our new readers, and don’t mind me if I wax a little philosophic here, a chain locker is the enclosure where the anchor chain is retracted into on a ship. Let’s think this through shall we. The anchor and chain sit and drag on the ocean floor. All ocean floors aren’t pristine like a National Geographic special. Harbors are highly contaminated with oil, pollution, bilge dumpings, sewage, there’s lots of organic material - you get the idea. And the chains get rusty. So here’s this room with all this decaying soup and a topping of tetanus inducing rust with a dash of lead based paint and cold damp salt crusty air blowing through the chain hole and at some point LRH looks around in there and what comes to his mind? Why, this would be an excellent place to put people with nothing but a bucket to shit and piss in.

So here he sets these precedents for behavior and people find themselves in this insane Catch-22 world doing this crazy shit to people, watching it being done or letting it be done to themselves. There will be moments when they kind of snap out of it and say, “Stop, this is out PR or if it isn’t fun it isn’t Scientology”. Maybe they have been through enough of it or seen enough of it to recognize it for what it is and they act on their correct, if not residual, moral compass. They may revert back to LRHism and not act another time and then they may act sanely again later. It isn’t a straight line. I’ve seen people in charge creating this abuse in one instance and in another instance at the same time react completely rationally and stop something else.

But this was a world of LRH’s design. I think his insane compulsions were often checked by other people from the bottom all the way up to Mary Sue but that doesn’t mean those same people didn’t contribute to the insanity or not stop it at other times. Curiously we see how a lot of people who were put in charge of doing this crazy shit are later declared SPs with big golden rods issued on them. Well maybe they woke up and that was the problem. Often they were just used as the fall guy when the optics got too bad.

I'm not familiar with this FCDC story but the time period you are describing here does sound like it was fully during LRH’s reign. What’s happened after he died can’t be neatly isolated from LRH. This is all Scientology and part of exiting Scientology is working your way back and forth between these completely opposing rationalizations of abuse. I don’t think people understand in general how much this is a part of human nature. We shouldn’t be too cocky. If you haven’t really been tested like this you may not know how you will behave in a Stockholming type situation or how it can effect you much later. I think some Scientologists were relatively “lightly” Stockholmed, for lack of a better term, and maybe they stay in the zone longer but kind of in a lower grade whereas if someone is heavily Stockholmed in some cases maybe something snaps and they see the light and can let go quicker or more completely.

Yes TOBBie, given the conditions you name Hubbard would be culpable before the law of "reckless endangerment", a misdemeanor.

And then all sorts of enturbulation occur for various reasons and this is one of the places things get hashed out because much of Hubbardian thought is quite sound; e.g. he directed the church should be a religious cooperative and esmb is a place where we do just that licking each others wounds in ways those who have not been there and done that cannot do.

Back at FCDC I got a good taste of Apollo grade horsecrap from a jackass who had gone there for training shortly before I arrived and returned after I'd been there a year but since I audited the guy I don't talk about him.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Great! Apparently, you are not aware that "Elron Elray" doesn't exist; is a figment of "Captain Bill's" warped imagination and is really, really stupid thing to believe in. Also, "Elron Elray" isn't Hubbard -- since Hubbard never made it to "OT" himself.

But do tell me, what kind of dress do you wear to talk to "Elron"? Can you post a photo?

"Who is it whom I address? Who takes down what I confess?"

Leonard Cohen

I'm as curious as he but I'm sure the answer isn't Elron.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

At one extreme, a "wonderfully sheltered life". At the other extreme, a "wonderfully jaded life".

The latter, where (despite spewing humanitarian-sounding values), is where someone would have to reside in order to offer up lame excuses and explanations for Hubbard's sociopathic abuse of small children.

You proudly defend Hubbard and assure one and all that he was not a sadistic madman. Instead you offer up praise for his delusions, lies, fraud and criminality.

Without the slightest sense of good and evil, you willfully turn a blind eye to terrorizing small defenseless children. None of this is allowed to interrupt your grinning and winning--as you continue posting blithely jaded degeneracy.

.

Yer da best Hoaxie!!!

Great to be playing badminton with you once again!

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I think locking a child up in a chain locker would have been considered an act of serious child abuse back then (the late 1960s), just as it would be now. In the UK corporal punishment was legal back then but I'm willing to bet anyone who locked a child up in a chain locker, let alone for two days, would have been prosecuted.

Could have been prosecuted yes.

Would have been prosecuted?

Probably not likely.

Done by any person with power and authority who is being of significant productive value in other ways, if it gets addressed at all then it's addressed in private.

Good God!!!

Look at how vast the sexual abuse of children became in RCC before the brown stuff hit the fan in public.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Yer da best Hoaxie!!!

Great to be playing badminton with you once again!

LOL

I have a have a terrible habit I have utterly failed to break...I like you Commander B.

But, some of your opinions feel like they're straight outta "The Worst of Zap Comix"--being read by me just as a time-released crystal of LSD (from 1969) broke loose and entered my system.

Whenever I read some of your stuff about Scn/Hubbard, I have to prepare by going into a place that has plenty of walls nearby, so I can run myself on locationals. LOL

.

 

[lotus]

Yes...

That's the Elron.

And I am well aware you and the posse would love to brand him as a sociopath.

Bottom line is you can heat the iron to incandescence but you can't get it to his hide.

Birdy,

IMHO, it's not a mattter of what we like or not.
For most of us, we never encounter the man (we only encountered his legacy...)
So labelling is just labelling ??? Yeah!

But in this case Birdy,
your beloved guru had been ''examined'' (by his own words, his behavior, his legacy) and by numerous experts, decades ago, till now..Psychologists, sociologists, psychiatrists, judges
concluded to almost the same ...Sociopath and\or narcissistic malignant (also pathological liar)

Why so many Hubbardites refuse to acknowledge the character had real issues with reality, evilness, cruelty, drugs, alcohol, sex misconduct, destroy people's life, blackmail them, and pathologically lying ????
Because they have been so brainwashed and indoctrinated that they are left only with a Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge cognitive dissonance in their attempt to escape the dellusion and the fact they have been fooled. Exactly the pattern you display ..Your own son died because of this cult..and you still venerate the cruel pervert he has been (per his behavior) to all human beings who approached him. That's LRH legacy in many people's life...deaths, suicides, families torn apartand a huge load of suffering for manyprior and following their wake up.

Move on..there is nothing either mystic or esotheric in LRH writings..it's a collection of non-sense hallucinations, lies,fabulations and stolen stuffhere and there..A lot written by ghost writers.

There is one way to measure the sanity of a person, it's his\her ability to face the true reality!
LRH didn't score very high as well as people who knowing the truth about LRH and the cult, still deny it in remaining to live in a the small shrinked world of LRH instead.

 

[lotus]

Could have been prosecuted yes.

Would have been prosecuted?

Probably not likely.

Done by any person with power and authority who is being of significant productive value in other ways, if it gets addressed at all then it's addressed in private.

Good God!!!

Look at how vast the sexual abuse of children became in RCC before the brown stuff hit the fan in public.

Another attempt at escaping the issue which is LRH was cruel and locked kids in the chain locker room to punish them (for no reason) withouth any remorse. Those kids who were used, by him, as slave workers and who dedicated their life to serve him.

The fucker , never dared to try to abuse a man..a 6'' tall and a big one (Never read any similar record online)
To the opposite, when ask by a sea Org (what did you do) about a small kid locked in the chain locker room, before giving any specifics to the question, he replied it was not him...

Poor soul!

What some other did..may be as much as cruel and in no way it was Okay in the 60's neither in the 2000 circa.
Same for rape, same for beating women..you remember your stance about beating women....few years ago????

You have such a way to always justify the fucker...Birdy...I have no clue why you do that!

 

[George Layton]

Yes TOBBie, given the conditions you name Hubbard would be culpable before the law of "reckless endangerment", a misdemeanor.

And then all sorts of enturbulation occur for various reasons and this is one of the places things get hashed out because much of Hubbardian thought is quite sound; e.g. he directed the church should be a religious cooperative and esmb is a place where we do just that licking each others wounds in ways those who have not been there and done that cannot do.

Back at FCDC I got a good taste of Apollo grade horsecrap from a jackass who had gone there for training shortly before I arrived and returned after I'd been there a year but since I audited the guy I don't talk about him.

You just did.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

You just did.

True enough georgie boy but w/o name or details

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Another attempt at escaping the issue which is LRH was cruel and locked kids in the chain locker room to punish them (for no reason) withouth any remorse. Those kids who were used, by him, as slave workers and who dedicated their life to serve him.

The fucker , never dared to try to abuse a man..a 6'' tall and a big one (Never read any similar record online)
To the opposite, when ask by a sea Org (what did you do) about a small kid locked in the chain locker room, before giving any specifics to the question, he replied it was not him...

Poor soul!

What some other did..may be as much as cruel and in no way it was Okay in the 60's neither in the 2000 circa.
Same for rape, same for beating women..you remember your stance about beating women....few years ago????

You have such a way to always justify the fucker...Birdy...I have no clue why you do that!

I don't endorse the chain locker, surely not and Hubbard was surely a flawed character in many many ways. I remember reading the notice of his death in The Seattle Times and feeling a sense of relief; like so many others I questioned whether he was a scary kind of guy. Hey! I'm a christian and his upper level published material renounces Christ.

But between him and his colleagues who added so much they came up with a toolbox I have used with astonishing results

And I don't recall what I said about beating women but if it was to the left of "Dames! Ya can't live wit' 'em and ya can't beat livin' crap out of 'em" then I take it back

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Birdy,

IMHO, it's not a mattter of what we like or not.
For most of us, we never encounter the man (we only encountered his legacy...)
So labelling is just labelling ??? Yeah!

But in this case Birdy,
your beloved guru had been ''examined'' (by his own words, his behavior, his legacy) and by numerous experts, decades ago, till now..Psychologists, sociologists, psychiatrists, judges
concluded to almost the same ...Sociopath and\or narcissistic malignant (also pathological liar)

Why so many Hubbardites refuse to acknowledge the character had real issues with reality, evilness, cruelty, drugs, alcohol, sex misconduct, destroy people's life, blackmail them, and pathologically lying ????
Because they have been so brainwashed and indoctrinated that they are left only with a Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge cognitive dissonance in their attempt to escape the dellusion and the fact they have been fooled. Exactly the pattern you display ..Your own son died because of this cult..and you still venerate the cruel pervert he has been (per his behavior) to all human beings who approached him. That's LRH legacy in many people's life...deaths, suicides, families torn apartand a huge load of suffering for manyprior and following their wake up.

Move on..there is nothing either mystic or esotheric in LRH writings..it's a collection of non-sense hallucinations, lies,fabulations and stolen stuffhere and there..A lot written by ghost writers.

There is one way to measure the sanity of a person, it's his\her ability to face the true reality!
LRH didn't score very high as well as people who knowing the truth about LRH and the cult, still deny it in remaining to live in a the small shrinked world of LRH instead.

Yup.

"Experts" thoroughly debunked Hubbard and his work back in 1950.

I don't get anything of value personally out of the Gorilla Goals implanted on the planet Helatrobus four quadrillion years in the past

But...

"put in the 'itsa-maker' line"

"get the PC into present time"

differentiate between thinking in identities and thinking in differences and similarities (I haven't studied Korzybski but that might come straight from him)

"raise the PC's havingness"

"get off a few assorted overts"

You know what you're doing, you keep in The Code, you abide The Creed and baby you are good to go.

And that's just down on a mundane level. Hubbsie ponies up some jet fuel on the seventh D