The beginning

[Boojuum]

Great thread

Thanks Challenge for the story. More is better.

 

[Challenge]

Geraldine? Do you mean Flip Wilson?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLifea3NHQ

Did you do the "original" OT levels? Nots? OT VIII?

If you had to do it over, would you?

Yes. Flip Wilson. Very very funny man.

Yes. I did the original OT levels in cos in 1969.

I did NOTs at Bent Corydon's Riverside Mission in 1984 or '85.

If I had it all to do over, I would do it all over, but absolutely not in the cos climate of today, nor in the FZ. Nor would I do it again if I had to pay Org prices.

I had a real good time in scn, excepting the time on the Flagship.
Even then, despite the squalor and insanity, I loved being a student.


Challenge

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... I did NOTs at Bent Corydon's Riverside Mission in 1984 or '85.

If I had it all to do over, I would do it all over, but absolutely not in the cos climate of today, nor in the FZ. Nor would I do it again if I had to pay Org prices. ...

As I recall Bent had already left the church at that time, or very nearly. If so you did do NOTS in the FZ, although here in the LA area we called ourselves independents as CBR was starting up his group under the FZ moniker at the time.

[I left SOC in Tustin around '82 and had occasion to visit at the independent mission in Riverside, i.e. Bent's place, subsequently.]


Mark A. Baker

 

[Challenge]

As I recall Bent had already left the church at that time, or very nearly. If so you did do NOTS in the FZ, although here in the LA area we called ourselves independents as CBR was starting up his group under the FZ moniker at the time.

[I left SOC in Tustin around '82 and had occasion to visit at the independent mission in Riverside, i.e. Bent's place, subsequently.]


Mark A. Baker

Use whatever you care to, Mark. I am not into the label/ categorize/ pigeon hole game.
I did a NOTs Auditors' course at Bent's Riverside Mission. It was late in 1983. I recall the year now because Bent was at my house one day when my younger daughter came over. I think that's the day that she decided to disconnect. I dunno fer shure cuz she never told me why she disconnected. But she was mucho upset to find Bent there, and to know that I was doing a service at his Mission.

I have written a few posts about the harrassment that the Staff and students, and especially Bent, was being subjected to. That was when cos was still trying to steal Bent's Mission, and there were lawsuits going on back and forth.

I started hearing the term 'FreeZone' at the very end of !983. It was solely a Capt Bill thing.

The Independent Field was a totally different thing, and those of us who were in the Field had nothing to do with the FZ.


Challenge

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Use whatever you care to, Mark. I am not into the label/ categorize/ pigeon hole game.
I did a NOTs Auditors' course at Bent's Riverside Mission. It was late in 1983. I recall the year now because Bent was at my house one day when my younger daughter came over. I think that's the day that she decided to disconnect. I dunno fer shure cuz she never told me why she disconnected. But she was mucho upset to find Bent there, and to know that I was doing a service at his Mission.

I have written a few posts about the harrassment that the Staff and students, and especially Bent, was being subjected to. That was when cos was still trying to steal Bent's Mission, and there were lawsuits going on back and forth.

I started hearing the term 'FreeZone' at the very end of !983. It was solely a Capt Bill thing.

The Independent Field was a totally different thing, and those of us who were in the Field had nothing to do with the FZ.


Challenge

Very true. The point of my post, C, is that the term freezone has been used far more broadly for many years now than it was back in the 80s. In that time freezone referred to CBR's group exclusively. In contemporary usage it covers any openly acknowledged use of scientology techniques; CBR, independent field, squirrel, etc.. Freezone includes CBR, but is not restricted to CBR. Similarly, freezone includes standard tech, but it is not restricted to standard tech only.

The services you received at that time, having been delivered outside the church, were they delivered today, would be considered as delivered by a part of the freezone. This is not to say that I think of you as part of the freezone, merely that that tech which you received then is that which continues to be made available by the freezone today.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Challenge]

Very true. The point of my post, C, is that the term freezone has been used far more broadly for many years now than it was back in the 80s. In that time freezone referred to CBR's group exclusively. In contemporary usage it covers any openly acknowledged use of scientology techniques; CBR, independent field, squirrel, etc.. Freezone includes CBR, but is not restricted to CBR. Similarly, freezone includes standard tech, but it is not restricted to standard tech only.

The services you received at that time, having been delivered outside the church, were they delivered today, would be considered as delivered by a part of the freezone. This is not to say that I think of you as part of the freezone, merely that that tech which you received then is that which continues to be made available by the freezone today.


Mark A. Baker

Mark, I cannot be responsible for what you think.
I have done NOTHING in the FreeZone.
Fer Gods' sake, I know what the FZ is, and I know many people who are FZers.
They do not subscribe to CBR's Bridge, but DO call themselves FZ. I do not.

I am not in the FZ. Never have been. Was Independent for 20 or more years, as well as being in good standing with cos during the majority of that time.

Bent's Mission was Bent's Mission.

FZ came along about the time that I left Bent's Mission and added NOTs auditing to my repetoire.

There was one person who gravitated to FZ from Riverside, and that person was....
well, nevermind.... but began wearing a wig around, and was paranoid out of touch that the Marcabians were after 'em.

I am an ex-scientologist. I am neither a FZer nor am i any longer practicing in the Independent Field. I am not rectruitable. I am not salvageable, thank you very much. Been there, done that.

Challenge

 

[Disinfected]

snip

I called the local bookstore and asked them if they had sold DMSMH to anyone else and my friend clerk at the bookstore gave me the name of a local optometrist who had bought it. I called him up, we "got in com", and soon began to co-audit on Bk 1. My first session with him I ran birth, and the menstral cramps that I had suffered horribly from, went away.

Neat story! Thanks. I am looking for more of it.

Have to say, though, I thought you were going to say that the optometrist threw down his DMSMH and raped you

 

[Challenge]

Very true. The point of my post, C, is that the term freezone has been used far more broadly for many years now than it was back in the 80s. In that time freezone referred to CBR's group exclusively. In contemporary usage it covers any openly acknowledged use of scientology techniques; CBR, independent field, squirrel, etc.. Freezone includes CBR, but is not restricted to CBR. Similarly, freezone includes standard tech, but it is not restricted to standard tech only.

The services you received at that time, having been delivered outside the church, were they delivered today, would be considered as delivered by a part of the freezone. This is not to say that I think of you as part of the freezone, merely that that tech which you received then is that which continues to be made available by the freezone today.


Mark A. Baker

I don't believe for a minute that the tech that I received in 1983 at Bent's Mission is the same tech that is delivered in the FreeZone today.

Merrill Mayo, who trained the Flag NOTs auditors on the Flagship until she escaped from the pole in the desert and ran to Bent and Mary, was running the course. Mary Corydon was CSing.

I don't think that FZ has that quality of service.

Is there even any CL8 or above training up people on the NOTs material?

Mark, I must say that if the postings between you and Terrill are any example of the folks in the FZ, then there is reason enuff to stay far far away. Add Pierre and Catherine to that equation, and what do you have?

Challenge

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I don't believe for a minute that the tech that I received in 1983 at Bent's Mission is the same tech that is delivered in the FreeZone today.

All I can say is it depends where you go. Tech varies greatly throughout the freezone. Some practitioners are VERY competent standard tech practitioners.

... Merrill Mayo, who trained the Flag NOTs auditors on the Flagship until she escaped from the pole in the desert and ran to Bent and Mary, was running the course. Mary Corydon was CSing.

I don't think that FZ has that quality of service. ...

I didn't know her although I met her once. By all reports she was a great lady.

... Is there even any CL8 or above training up people on the NOTs material?

Yes.

... Mark, I must say that if the postings between you and Terrill are any example of the folks in the FZ, then there is reason enuff to stay far far away. ...

I'm inclined to agree with you. For my part I tend to be a grumpy b@stard with little tolerance for whitewash.

With regard to BB, I have grown more than a little intolerant over the last year & a half with BBs inappropriate actions & feeble excuses over a host of divisive issues which erupted into public discussion on his chat group. As a result I have no tolerance at all for his attempts to denigrate others on this, or other outlets for what are in fact his own failures elsewhere.

I'm not a particularly 'nice' person by nature, and have never claimed to be one. I do try to treat others fairly and with civility. I am definitely not a 'chummy' person.

Unlike me, BB is a genuinely nice man. I actually like the man, although I've learned from experience not to rely on his judgement as he will do the d@mndest things. BB long ago exceeded my limits of tolerance for misleading & inappropriate public attacks on others. Any incivility towards BB on my part results from my own prior direct experience of his potential for irresponsible behavior, not malice.

I'm perfectly content to leave BB in peace. BUT when he sets out to create trouble I WILL come down on him like a ton of nasty heavy pointed rectangular building objects. I do, however, stick to fact.

... Add Pierre and Catherine to that equation, and what do you have?

Challenge

Have you seen me justifying the Ethier's actions somewhere, C? Or, lrh's? Or Miscavige's & Rathbun's?

In my personal exchanges with Pierre heretofore, he has not been unreasonable. They are very few. I have however on numerous occasions been a witness, although at a remove, to Pierre's own vicious attacks upon others. Still, some individuals whom I do respect, and in a couple of cases respect greatly, have publicly acknowledged his excellence as an auditor and are very grateful for the help he has given them.

I consider myself to be a part of the freezone in that I continue to use & recommend some aspects of scientology & dianetics. I do not hide that fact. I also have friends who are part of the freezone. Some of these are more 'orthodox' in their tendencies than I am. However, I do not, nor will not, endorse any and all other freezoners or scientologists. Just as with non-scientologists & ex's, there are several freezoners I have met whom I consider to be irresponsible. It is very much a question of individuals.

What you may not have noticed is that, unlike BB, I have not made a practice of making blanket endorsements of any person who offers freezone services. I always recommend that any individual considering doing a service in the freezone know the people with whom they are intending to do services. This is in general a good practice, whether applied to freezone services or any other activity.

And for the record, I have no desire to recruit, salvage, or convert you or any other person. I am not any kind of a 'salesman'. I have no 'freezone practice'. I post as a private individual only.

Moreover I consider that the fundamental freedom of the individual is the right to decide for himself.


Mark A. Baker

 

[shadow]

This is good stuff challenge.

I recall a Hubbard lecture with him warning about the psychs diagnosing Manic, he came across pretty concerned that the psychs used this term, was that state of man lectures?he got cranky saying there was no such thing as a manic. ill see if i can dig it up.

Looking at the effects of the drugs on Hubbard and his paranoid policies, high volumes of talk there is definitely similarities.

Amphetamine Effects
Mentally, you start to feel confident and elated, along with an increased desire to communicate. alertness and endurance increases. Often users talk (write) fast and continually.

Taking cocaine makes users feel on top of the world. People taking it feel wide-awake, confident and on top of their game.

People who use coke regularly often develop serious problems with anxiety and paranoia.

Mixing Cocaine and Heroin induce hypomania and/or mania
Classic symptoms of hypomania include mild euphoria, a flood of ideas, endless energy, and a desire and drive for success.

In full-blown drug induced mania, the manic person will feel as though his or her goal(s) trump all else, that there are no consequences or that negative consequences would be minimal, and that they need not exercise restraint in the pursuit of what they are after.

Mania is always relative to the normal rate of intensity of the person, an intelligent person may adopt seemingly "genius" characteristics and an ability to perform and to articulate thought beyond what they can do in a normal mood.

...[/URL]

I found this interesting because when a psychiatrist is going through the diagnostic process for ADHD, if there is a concern that bipolar disorder exists, stimulants such as amphetamines and methylphenidate are only used VERY carefully (with ultra low starting doses) because they can induce mania in someone who is bipolar. It sounds more to me that Hubbard preferred to think he could not have mania because that would indicate the possibility of a mental disorder such as bipolar. In the 50s this was a worse stigma than having the "big C". If you pretend it is drug induced, you can pretend that it is external and not part of you, and that you have control over it.

Stigma can cause a lot of odd behavior. For instance, David Lander (the actor that played Squiggy on Laverne and Shirley) hid his multiple sclerosis on the set and preferred everyone think that he was drunk rather than face the stigma of having a disease such as MS.

The similarities between Hubbard's descriptions of drug induced mania and the descriptions of bipolar symptoms, and Hubbard's behaviors are all so similar...

I find people to be fascinating. I have always thought my father-in-law exhibited some bipolar behaviors, and he may have been modeling Hubbard's behavior to a certain extent.

 

[Terril park]

Is there even any CL8 or above training up people on the NOTs material?

Challenge

Glen Samuels was on the first NOTs course and among other things he acts as senior C/S for Pat and Ray Kreniks group in Washington state. Lots of products which you would maybe go to ACT for example to read.

Pierre also mentors and C/Ses people re NOTs including personal friends. Outside of the auditor and C/S chair he can be a liability.One is Pierrot from Belgium, occasional poster here, who also
is in effect class VIII. Ken Urquhart told me he couldn't handle a difficult case without Pierrot's C/Sing. Then there is Mary and
Franklin Freeman. Frank Davis in the mid west.

Then there is Ron's orgs. I have no opinion re NOTs v Excal,
but they do lots!

 

[Jachs]

I found this interesting because when a psychiatrist is going through the diagnostic process for ADHD, if there is a concern that bipolar disorder exists, stimulants such as amphetamines and methylphenidate are only used VERY carefully (with ultra low starting doses) because they can induce mania in someone who is bipolar. It sounds more to me that Hubbard preferred to think he could not have mania because that would indicate the possibility of a mental disorder such as bipolar. In the 50s this was a worse stigma than having the "big C". If you pretend it is drug induced, you can pretend that it is external and not part of you, and that you have control over it.

Stigma can cause a lot of odd behavior. For instance, David Lander (the actor that played Squiggy on Laverne and Shirley) hid his multiple sclerosis on the set and preferred everyone think that he was drunk rather than face the stigma of having a disease such as MS.

The similarities between Hubbard's descriptions of drug induced mania and the descriptions of bipolar symptoms, and Hubbard's behaviors are all so similar...

I find people to be fascinating. I have always thought my father-in-law exhibited some bipolar behaviors, and he may have been modeling Hubbard's behavior to a certain extent.

I definitely believe Hubbard was avoiding being viewed as a manic, and justified his manic behavior, his traits were being discussed by auditors & public ( hubbard doesnt give specifics so why should I), and those recognising his manic-ness were passing it on.

The background
On 26 June 1951 Hubbard gave 4 lectures for Science of Survival, earlier that year (feb march 51) he had just been publicly accused of being mentally ill, lost his Dianetic Foundations from bankruptcy & fled to Cuba with Richard deMille , was physically & mentally ill, paranoid, (He dictated SOS whilst there ) deMille witnessing a worsening condition called Don Purcell with an urgent request for help, Purcell chartered a private plane and sent a nurse,Hubbard returned around April 15 1951.

So on one of the SOS lectures he describes Manic, but i think he is describing himself.He is altering the Definition of Manic to Euphoria, when that is only one insignificant part of the definition from Psycho-analysis at the time.

Im going to tell you how to bust a manic, you scan out all the times they feel good and youll wind up sitting in the middle of a manic engram. ..

Boy dont let these manics fool you. Theres plenty of them walking in the society, theres people walking around in a manic! ...

A person whos walking around in one of these "ive got to feel good" things feels like hell actually.they feel bad, they feel hectic,strained.

Now , I repeat the cure for that [manic]again, Just find out what the person is too high on[toned].

Fast forward to 25 August 1966 explanation.

Note the change of reference from 1951 "I" to the 1966 "WE" (were wrong)
and recanting on manic, its only ever euphoria, (Inaccurate definition) but its good now, and THE reason this Euphoric person was attacked was for feeling good.

And in those days I took the psychoanalytic explanation. It wasn’t that we were doing psychoanalysis, it was just—if you understand what I’m talking to you about on this—was because we accidentally (OT) were getting into psychoanalytic patients and practitioners. They were moving in our direction.

And we used to attribute it to the fact that she’d( patient) not been benefited but had just hit a manic. Get that phrase: "hit a manic"—had become manic for three days. Therefore one could say it was very dangerous that she was processed and all this. I know today exactly what happened to her, all these ages afterwards. She hit an SP, man, and he plowed her through the wall. I even know the guy’s name. (recently edited name- the publicly vilified was Art Ceppos, not a psychiatrist )She maybe hit more than one. But boy, she sure went through the wall. And that was simply a rolly coaster: better—worse.

There is no such thing as a manic—a person gets on an enthusiastic euphoria that life is great. It’s just that psychiatrists[Ceppos wasnt a Psychiatrist] hate people in that condition. And so they promptly cave them in. They go bow! The guy says, "Wow, at last I realize I can be sane, and isn’t the world wonderful!"

"Oh, my God! You’re in a manic. We’ve got to give you eighteen extra shocks and transorbital leukotomies and trowohkhhr!"

Hubbard is displaying manic ,if he believes psychiatrists give brain operations for feeling Euphoric.what a 'joke', isolate the definition and then say it never existed.

Whats more disturbing is those studying these flip flops, getting lunatic ideas.

 

[shadow]

Thanks for the additional info Jachss99.
Between how immature the neurosciences and psychiatry were in the 50s and on; combined with the stigma of mental illness, I can really see why the "self-help" movement really took off. Then there was the bonus of being told you can have complete control over all aspects of your health and life, and save the planet on top of all those personal benefits.

It is a shame it was an elaborate trap and that the human cost has been so high. I was not "in", but I married into a family that was on the Apollo until the families were sent home. My spouse went off the radar in his teens (before I met him), so have been on the periphery. Until recently, I puzzled over the lack of inter-family communication about so many sensitive subjects, and the constant threat of family being torn apart. I have watched family members grow up without an education and without medical care, both could have been life changing.

I started really trying to get educated on all of this several years ago to keep my kids away from scn. In the process, I have heard so many heartbreaking stories and seen so many people that are truly remarkable.

 

[Jachs]

Thanks for the additional info Jachss99.
Between how immature the neurosciences and psychiatry were in the 50s and on; combined with the stigma of mental illness, I can really see why the "self-help" movement really took off. Then there was the bonus of being told you can have complete control over all aspects of your health and life, and save the planet on top of all those personal benefits.

It is a shame it was an elaborate trap and that the human cost has been so high. I was not "in", but I married into a family that was on the Apollo until the families were sent home. My spouse went off the radar in his teens (before I met him), so have been on the periphery. Until recently, I puzzled over the lack of inter-family communication about so many sensitive subjects, and the constant threat of family being torn apart. I have watched family members grow up without an education and without medical care, both could have been life changing.

I started really trying to get educated on all of this several years ago to keep my kids away from scn. In the process, I have heard so many heartbreaking stories and seen so many people that are truly remarkable.

No probs,


When you say the neuro sciences & Psychiatry were immature , i guess you had to be back in that time. The psychiatrists that were drawn to Hubbard appear to be mature but blinded by the expectancy of decency.

I can see too why the self help movement really took off like a balloon, pity in didnt just remain a book .

 

[Operating DB]

This is good stuff challenge.

I recall a Hubbard lecture with him warning about the psychs diagnosing Manic, he came across pretty concerned that the psychs used this term, was that state of man lectures?he got cranky saying there was no such thing as a manic. ill see if i can dig it up.

Looking at the effects of the drugs on Hubbard and his paranoid policies, high volumes of talk there is definitely similarities.

Amphetamine Effects
Mentally, you start to feel confident and elated, along with an increased desire to communicate. alertness and endurance increases. Often users talk (write) fast and continually.

Taking cocaine makes users feel on top of the world. People taking it feel wide-awake, confident and on top of their game.

People who use coke regularly often develop serious problems with anxiety and paranoia.

Mixing Cocaine and Heroin induce hypomania and/or mania
Classic symptoms of hypomania include mild euphoria, a flood of ideas, endless energy, and a desire and drive for success.

In full-blown drug induced mania, the manic person will feel as though his or her goal(s) trump all else, that there are no consequences or that negative consequences would be minimal, and that they need not exercise restraint in the pursuit of what they are after.

Mania is always relative to the normal rate of intensity of the person, an intelligent person may adopt seemingly "genius" characteristics and an ability to perform and to articulate thought beyond what they can do in a normal mood.

There are different "stages" or "states" of drug mania. A minor state is essentially hypomania and, like hypomania's characteristics, may involve increased creativity, wit, gregariousness, and ambition. Full-blown mania will make a person feel elated, but perhaps also irritable, frustrated.

Other elements of mania may include delusions (of grandeur, potential, or otherwise), hypersensitivity, hypersexuality, hyper-religiosity, hyperactivity, impulsiveness, talkativeness, an internal pressure to keep talking (over-explanation) or rapid speech, grandiose ideas and plans, and decreased need for sleep (e.g. feeling rested after 3 or 4 hours of sleep).

In manic and hypomanic cases, the afflicted person may engage in out-of-character behavior, such as questionable business transactions, wasteful expenditures of money, risky sexual activity, recreational drug abuse, abnormal social interaction, or highly vocal arguments uncharacteristic of previous behaviors.

These behaviors may increase stress in personal relationships, lead to problems at work and increase the risk of altercations with law enforcement. There is a high risk of impulsively taking part in activities potentially harmful to self and others.

See Hubbard there rattling out Pulp fiction at a high whine induced & fuelled by coke and heroin. Ron the self medicator.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hub was on drugs when he wrote DMSMH. These drug symptoms (hypomania) and the fact that he supposedly wrote in 3 weeks seem to indicate. And the fact that it is poorly written.

 

[Jachs]

I wouldn't be surprised if Hub was on drugs when he wrote DMSMH. These drug symptoms (hypomania) and the fact that he supposedly wrote in 3 weeks seem to indicate. And the fact that it is poorly written.

One of the Chapters of Dianetis is supposedly Excalibur which was a Nitros oxide trip, why stop a good thing.

- Hubbard's household manager
"There were two and a half versions of Excalibur. I read them and I
didn't go mad and I didn't commit suicide. They also include the
information within related writings, that these came out of a nitrous
oxide incident. Hubbard had a couple of teeth extracted, and it was
while under the effect of nitrous oxide, that he came up with
Excalibur."

I reckon he was high as a kite too punching out DMSMH.

 

[Jachs]

delete

 

[Operating DB]

"Quote Originally Posted by GERRY ARMSTRONG
- Hubbard's household manager
"There were two and a half versions of Excalibur. I read them and I
didn't go mad and I didn't commit suicide. They also include the
information within related writings, that these came out of a nitrous
oxide incident. Hubbard had a couple of teeth extracted, and it was
while under the effect of nitrous oxide, that he came up with
Excalibur."

Hrmmph! I had nitrous oxide once at the dentist and it did nothing for me. Totally boring! I was very disappointed. I was expecting some wonderful relaxing high. But nada!

Gee, he had two teeth extracted? His OT powers didn't extend to his teeth now did they?

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

bump

 

[Gib]

bump

I re bump cuz I can't read it all tonight, but tomorrow I can.