Stably exterior with full perception

[Romuva]

Alan,I know my opinion doesn't matter too much in the collection of opinions here but if I could say how I felt after reading your account of this woman.


What happened to that woman was just plain outright irresponsible and stupid.What would of happened if this woman had drowned?

In my opinion,you can look at this anyway you choose but that day you
did the most responsible and courageous act.You jumped in and got her
safely to shore and god bless your soul,you helped her!
It was traumatic but it would of been even more traumatic if she drowned!



To me,this only confirms more why I have deep reservations about Scientology.COS is insane in my opinion.If this isn't another example of what
LRH was I don't what is!

thank you for sharing that

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

O r a fete at three!

Que?

 

[Alanzo]

To expand on my own quote: it's very depressing if it's true as it sheds LRH in a bad light (to say the least), and it's depressing if it's not true because that would make Mayo a liar and quite possibly an SP which means that LRH couldn't spot an SP to save his life.

It could also mean that there is absolutely no such thing in real life as an SP, and that the concept is only a cartoon LRH drew to manipulate power and allegiance in his cult.

The only other possibility is that Mayo's body was taken over by an SP thetan (there is a precedent in Scn) at some later point, but that would be clutching at straws!

This is often the explanation Scientologists have to settle with when someone they have known for a long time as a loyal Scientologist becomes an SP.

They were taken over by an evil thetan.

If they weren't taken over by an evil thetan, then the concept of SP does not actually exist in real life. Because the person you know is the same as they ever were. So, the Scientologist reasons, in order to keep my belief in SPs intact, the person must have been taken over by an evil thetan.

It's a matter of how long do you want to live with unsustainable concepts running around in your head?

As long as those unsustainable concepts don't cause noticeable damage to your own life. When the damage becomes noticeable, and keeps happening over an over, that's when a Scientologist will finally drop them.

For me, I realized that when I got myself involved in Scientology I was on a road to truth. So I had to ask myself, why stop traveling that road just because I've become a Scientologist?

 

[Alanzo]

Alan,I know my opinion doesn't matter too much in the collection of opinions here but if I could say how I felt after reading your account of this woman.

What happened to that woman was just plain outright irresponsible and stupid.What would of happened if this woman had drowned?

In my opinion,you can look at this anyway you choose but that day you did the most responsible and courageous act.You jumped in and got her safely to shore and god bless your soul,you helped her!
It was traumatic but it would of been even more traumatic if she drowned!

I agree.

It also confirms for me why Alan Walters is considered one of the biggest SP/Spit/Squirrels in all of Scientology history: He had the courage to stand up to LRH's coercion.

That'll get you declared an SP/Spit/Squirrel every time.

Very Well Done, Alan.

I salute you.

 

[Romuva]

Alanzo,when I read alan,Dennis,Bea Kiddo,Emma,PattyP,yourself and others(sorry if I left anybody out) here I am always left with the same gut instinct.

COS is sick and twisted.LRH was a disturbed individual and I'm sorry to say this to Fz's/Indies. Scientology has deep problems in it on so many levels.
Like I said this is only my opinion.Nothing else.

What kind of great philosophy or "Tech" can even be looked at the slightest
bit of seriousness when the founder and creator of it was filming a woman being rescued who might of drowned?!..and this was not an isolated incident
where something like this had happened.To me ,this is the essence of
Scientology because it all goes back to LRH.

I'm sorry,It's fucking insanity...I am so glad I told this organization to fuck off
and left years ago,otherwise I would of been in this twisted meat grinder
for years!!

I can only say after so many years it has been so beneficial to read the accounts here and at OCMB.It has put so much closure to this for me.


sorry for the rant,it just dumbfounds me.LRH was one sickfuck.

 

[Dulloldfart]

What kind of great philosophy or "Tech" can even be looked at the slightest
bit of seriousness when the founder and creator of it was filming a woman
being rescued who might of drowned?!..and this was not an isolated incident
where something like this had happened.To me ,this is the essence of
Scientology because it all goes back to LRH.

Fortunately, I discovered some good things about the tech before hearing about some of the insanities involving LRH, DM and others. If I had tried it the other way around, I expect I would share your viewpoint, Romuva, and have stayed well away from it.

Paul

 

[Div6]

To be honest - I put my head up my ass and hoped it would go away.

But there was one stuck picture that would not go away. Behind it was at that time an unthikable thought.

Ron had Julia Salmon thrown overboard.....Julia was about 64 years old, terribly overweight and could not swim.

The people who threw her overboard struggled to get her over the side; she was terrified; she kept crying out "I cannot swim!" On her way down she hit the side of the ship - I could hear her screams - it was obvious she was injured and drowning.

The people on the deck all stood around too afraid to do anything. Fearing to originate any action less the become tthe target bof LRHs displeasure.

I ran and jumped over the side and rescued her. I then pulled her over to the ladder that led up to the ground level of the dock........it was about 20 feet straight up. She could not climd the steps. I had my shoulders under her butt pushing her up..... no one still had come to help.......but at the top of that ladder stood LRH filming us.....such evil.......

Anyway after an immense struggle with Julia's help I was able to push her up to the top of the ladder....finally some help arrived.

Over the years the unthinkable thought pushed forward more and more....it was "that I observe that LRH was demonic at that time." I did not want to know that, did not want to believe that.......that was too incredible to be believed - even for me - I did the usual make nothing of myself...."you're seeing things" "what do you know" "you got overts" - much easier to blame self than confront what is.



I was slowly going out of the game.

Realize we had gone through many changes - and had come out somewhat better for it..........those changes needed to be inspected over many years - to observe their full consequences.

I wanted to believe - I must believe - for if it was a lie then look how many people I had betrayed - definitely a must not be known area - an area of such pain and anguish - it must never be experienced.



By my dilligently continuing to constantly look up and contemplate the interior of my colon!!!

Alan

I for one appreciate your honesty. I also want to ack you for "doing the right thing" in helping that lady. Although I do wonder what would have happened if somebody actually did die from being "overboarded".

There was a "power of forgiveness: that was supposed to be read to a person after a full and complete "integrity check". I have never heard of any one actually receiving it. I found it interesting that Jim DiCalci
has specialized in forgiveness since his close encounter with LRH...

Even the "evil psychs" recognize the power in that action...

Let it go...take back your power....direct it to those who deserve it.

I know I mention Filbert a lot, but I do find some of his observations to be poignent at times....such as:

" When he was working on OT 3 and got down to the last two beings, asking which one is him, he took the persisting (reading) item as him. That is below being dumb, and that is the technology of a body thetan. So, the body thetan took over the act, and he was exteriorized off to elsewhere. He paid the personal price for incorrect technology, by being conquered by a flea and his own ignorant worship of engineering and mechanics, in 1966."

Stilted? Yes....was LRH acting like an entity in his later years? Yes.

Compare to the "golden Age" of Phoenix....there was a thetan there.


I've forgiven LRH. We honor people by remembering them at their best, not their worst. But we also know that he was only human....

 

[Dulloldfart]

There was a "power of forgiveness: that was supposed to be read to a person after a full and complete "integrity check". I have never heard of any one actually receiving it.

I received it once. It meant nothing to me. The person doing the "forgiving"--the auditor--was the wrong source. Not that I felt like I needed forgiveness anyway.

I know I mention Filbert a lot, but I do find some of his observations to be poignent at times....such as:

" When he was working on OT 3 and got down to the last two beings, asking which one is him, he took the persisting (reading) item as him. That is below being dumb, and that is the technology of a body thetan. So, the body thetan took over the act, and he was exteriorized off to elsewhere. He paid the personal price for incorrect technology, by being conquered by a flea and his own ignorant worship of engineering and mechanics, in 1966."

This seems to be one of the more inane things that Filbert said. Sorry, but I don't share your appreciation of the worth of his writings.

Paul

 

[Alan]

Thank you - it is very much appreciated!

But in fairness I must also salute you - for as I was writing up this incident I was able to view it from many viewpoints........because almost all of you are willing me to fully look, I was able to duplicate this incident not just from my viewpoint - but from the 3rd and 4th dynamic viewpoints.

I felt I had a team helping me confront the full rage, fury, disgust, pain, anguish and immense loss contained in the incident, and the subsequent consequences for all of us across the dynamics.

So I thank you all. I feel maaaarvolous!

Alan

 

[Div6]

I received it once. It meant nothing to me. The person doing the "forgiving"--the auditor--was the wrong source. Not that I felt like I needed forgiveness anyway.

LRH had no insight into forgiveness...see "What is Greatness" for his vp on it.

This seems to be one of the more inane things that Filbert said. Sorry, but I don't share your appreciation of the worth of his writings.

Paul

No problem. "Let those that have eyes see, those that have ears, hear." to quote an old gnostic scripture.

 

[MarkWI]

There was a "power of forgiveness: that was supposed to be read to a person after a full and complete "integrity check". I have never heard of any one actually receiving it.

I also have been forgiven once by my auditor; I believe it was at the end of Grade 2.

 

[Tanstaafl]

It could also mean that there is absolutely no such thing in real life as an SP, and that the concept is only a cartoon LRH drew to manipulate power and allegiance in his cult.

I think the explanation of an SP is simplistic. However, there are people out there who, for periods of time at least, are focussed on desctruction. There are also people who have a bad button on help and fight those who do help.

Having said that, I would guess that of all those who have been declared since 1965 less than 10% deserved it.

Int Mmt needs group processing on "waste some fighting".

This is often the explanation Scientologists have to settle with when someone they have known for a long time as a loyal Scientologist becomes an SP.

They were taken over by an evil thetan.

If they weren't taken over by an evil thetan, then the concept of SP does not actually exist in real life. Because the person you know is the same as they ever were. So, the Scientologist reasons, in order to keep my belief in SPs intact, the person must have been taken over by an evil thetan.

Well, it's only a valid conclusion if you have sufficient perception to see it clearly as such for yourself. One might argue that BTs constitute such an arrangement.

I was once told, by a reliable source, that the first mission to buy a boat for the Sea Org was sent to Liverpool. It failed. LRH personally held the BofI, which I was told was highly irregular. Apparently, rightly or wrongly, it was found that an SP thetan had "attached" itself to the guy in charge of the mission.

 

[Romuva]

Fortunately, I discovered some good things about the tech before hearing about some of the insanities involving LRH, DM and others. If I had tried it the other way around, I expect I would share your viewpoint, Romuva, and have stayed well away from it.

Paul

Paul,that's the other half of it ,in my opinion.From my experience there are
parts of Scientology that are harmless.From my experience ,I did auditing
and found it made me feel good for a while.I can't honestly say why that
happened and what auditing is but I don't feel the auditing was some kind
of programing that screwed me up.What seemed to screw me up was the
indoctrination by COS and their beliefs that I feel basically started to
overpower and change my thinking.

but again I can't honestly say what auditing is.Therapy?Hypnosis?some
placebo effect?..

and this seems to be said over and over by ex's that even the most staunchest critics had some benefit and not all their experiences were
negative.of course there are some that saw no benefit to it whatsoever.

With that said I feel there are parts of scientology that were Hubbards
opinions and information and concepts that Hubbard found useful to control
,manipulate,influence and basically get people to do what he wanted.
and I don't feel for a second this was unintentional.

What you're left with is a huge pile of information that might have some
benefit to some but had the writings of who I feel was a disturbed and
twisted person.Again this is just my opinion.

I guess part of it was the way I was raised.Leadership and being responsible
does count for something in this world.

What Alan and others did is being a decent and responsible person.It shows
you actually give a shit about somebody else.It shows the decency that
is required to be a leader.

I understand about the concept of dynamics but as far as I'm concerned
we live together on one planet as human beings and need to be somewhat
caring and decent towards each other.

I just give the people here and at other ex-scis alot of gratitude.It
took alot of strength to do what was right.Leave and speak out or something
like Alan did.

 

[Terril park]

I agree.

It also confirms for me why Alan Walters is considered one of the biggest SP/Spit/Squirrels in all of Scientology history: He had the courage to stand up to LRH's coercion.

That'll get you declared an SP/Spit/Squirrel every time.

Very Well Done, Alan.

I salute you.

Maybe Alan will say what LRH did after this. He was given a few declares as I recall, or at least a few heavy ethics problems over the years. The final parting of the ways was around the time of the mission bust ups.

 

[Div6]

Maybe Alan will say what LRH did after this. He was given a few declares as I recall, or at least a few heavy ethics problems over the years. The final parting of the ways was around the time of the mission bust ups.

I wonder what happened to those films? Probably shredded, but boy, would that ever be an exhibit for the LRH Life exhibition....

 

[Dulloldfart]

I wonder what happened to those films? Probably shredded, but boy, would that ever be an exhibit for the LRH Life exhibition....

They could add to the Ron Mags: Ron The Demon

I bet it would sell well.

Paul

 

[Veda]

I for one appreciate your honesty. I also want to ack you for "doing the right thing" in helping that lady. Although I do wonder what would have happened if somebody actually did die from being "overboarded".

There was a "power of forgiveness: that was supposed to be read to a person after a full and complete "integrity check". I have never heard of any one actually receiving it. I found it interesting that Jim DiCalci
has specialized in forgiveness since his close encounter with LRH...

Even the "evil psychs" recognize the power in that action...

Let it go...take back your power....direct it to those who deserve it.

I know I mention Filbert a lot, but I do find some of his observations to be poignent at times....such as:

" When he was working on OT 3 and got down to the last two beings, asking which one is him, he took the persisting (reading) item as him. That is below being dumb, and that is the technology of a body thetan. So, the body thetan took over the act, and he was exteriorized off to elsewhere. He paid the personal price for incorrect technology, by being conquered by a flea and his own ignorant worship of engineering and mechanics, in 1966."

Stilted? Yes....was LRH acting like an entity in his later years? Yes.

Compare to the "golden Age" of Phoenix....there was a thetan there.

I've forgiven LRH. We honor people by remembering them at their best, not their worst. But we also know that he was only human....

Only human? That's not how he described himself to Scientologists. The premise was that he was super-human, and others could be too. Remember?

And he was the ONLY ONE who could do it. Thus 'KSW', and Fair Game, and covert Ops, and the Commodore/Sea Org construct, etc., etc., was all justified.

(And there's plenty of crazed pre-1966 material, if that's anyone's chosen date for when LRH went off to elsewhere, leaving behind... wOoooooOOoo!)

Is it enough now just to be "connected to Source," and to "forgive LRH"?

In 1984, briefly, Filbert was the "rage," and that's when I read his typed manuscript of 'Excalibur Revisited' (which it isn't, since "Excalibur' was mostly Dianetic-type [Survive!] theory without the Repeater technique.)

Then, Filbert's stuff (his recounting of the Scientology auditing levels, plus his ample notes from listening to Hubbard's SHSBC tapes, plus his own commentary, and imagination) was interesting, but even then, parts seemed pretty nonsensical.

And you just quoted one of those parts.

IMO, it's self centered for you - or me - to think that much changes if you - or I - "forgive LRH." What he created is still out there. L. Ron Hubbard's (Commodore Hubbard's) Scientology is in the phone book.

It's not mainly about you, or me. It's mainly about other people.

By all means, "Forgive LRH," if that makes you feel better. Personally, I don't want LRH for a snugglebunny anyway, so I don't need to kiss and make up.

 

[RolandRB]

To be honest - I put my head up my ass and hoped it would go away.

But there was one stuck picture that would not go away. Behind it was at that time an unthikable thought.

Ron had Julia Salmon thrown overboard.....Julia was about 64 years old, terribly overweight and could not swim.

The people who threw her overboard struggled to get her over the side; she was terrified; she kept crying out "I cannot swim!" On her way down she hit the side of the ship - I could hear her screams - it was obvious she was injured and drowning.

The people on the deck all stood around too afraid to do anything. Fearing to originate any action less the become tthe target bof LRHs displeasure.

I ran and jumped over the side and rescued her. I then pulled her over to the ladder that led up to the ground level of the dock........it was about 20 feet straight up. She could not climd the steps. I had my shoulders under her butt pushing her up..... no one still had come to help.......but at the top of that ladder stood LRH filming us.....such evil.......

Anyway after an immense struggle with Julia's help I was able to push her up to the top of the ladder....finally some help arrived.

Over the years the unthinkable thought pushed forward more and more....it was "that I observe that LRH was demonic at that time." I did not want to know that, did not want to believe that.......that was too incredible to be believed - even for me - I did the usual make nothing of myself...."you're seeing things" "what do you know" "you got overts" - much easier to blame self than confront what is.



I was slowly going out of the game.

Realize we had gone through many changes - and had come out somewhat better for it..........those changes needed to be inspected over many years - to observe their full consequences.

I wanted to believe - I must believe - for if it was a lie then look how many people I had betrayed - definitely a must not be known area - an area of such pain and anguish - it must never be experienced.



By my dilligently continuing to constantly look up and contemplate the interior of my colon!!!

Alan

Hate to be picky but in the book BFM it says Julia Salmon was 55 when she was thrown in. That is more believable than your age estimate of 64 because before that time she would have been offloaded rather than overboarded.

And as for being fat -- how come she was fat if she was on a SO diet? I can't imagine Hubbard feeding any of his slaves well. Was she on a double course of beans and rice?

Oh, I forgot. I hear you were a heavier-than-normal person and still are. Were you heavy when you were on the Apollo / Scotman or whatever? If so then how?

Excuse me if I don't believe all your claims as readily as the rest of the people here seem to do.

 

[Alan]

Hate to be picky but in the book BFM it says Julia Salmon was 55 when she was thrown in. That is more believable than your age estimate of 64 because before that time she would have been offloaded rather than overboarded.

And as for being fat -- how come she was fat if she was on a SO diet? I can't imagine Hubbard feeding any of his slaves well. Was she on a double course of beans and rice?

Oh, I forgot. I hear you were a heavier-than-normal person and still are. Were you heavy when you were on the Apollo / Scotman or whatever? If so then how?

Excuse me if I don't believe all your claims as readily as the rest of the people here seem to do.

Thats okay - you usually do not believe anything......so this is a big step forward.

Julia was not SO. She was the Western Continental Director of the Americas. Head of all Western American Orgs including South Americas and Canada, HQ in LA.

As for her being 55 - she may well have been - any female over 26 was old to me in those days

I was a child of 33.

As I am 6ft 4ins I have always been heavier than most people - back then I weighed around 235 lbs.

Also back then people were not offloaded because of old age. It was almost 40 years ago. The abuses were only just beginning in earnest.

Next time I will clear my posts through you to see that I have the proper issue authority.

Alan

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I told John about this conversation. He said that if he saw- just once- LRH (or anyone else, for that matter) laughing and filming people in trouble in the water like that, that he'd leave. That day.

He was wondering how long you stayed after seeing those things, Alan, and why.