I need real answers in real English! Please!

[Caliwog]

I am a little frustrated and sad that many of you say there is no hope for some people.

I should clarify: I won't say that there is no hope, but I will say that you can't make him change.

I was a "hopeless" alcoholic for many years.

Alcoholism is different, Michele. Alcoholism (or any drug addiction) is a personal thing. The alcohol industry was not established specifically to scam people out of money, and it does not have a well-organized system of policies designed to condition people to argue against, tune out, and eventually disconnect from loved ones who tell you that being an alcoholic is bad.

But, like an alcoholic, a Scientologist only gets clean when he or she decides to for him or herself. They need to see something for themselves that convinces them to stop.

As a recovered alcoholic (and well done you, by the way) you know that you have to hit rock bottom for yourself. That cannot happen from the outside.

It's your life, Michele. But as an ex-addict, would you have a relationship with someone who is still using? Well, guess what - your boyfriend is still using.

Much love,
Caliwog

 

[Caliwog]

Well, you're better off not trusting people in a cult, yeah. When in doubt, take the path of caution. But I will say this- I wasn't like that when I was in.

Ever write a KR? Ever put "getting the product" above personal concerns? Ever break a confidence by telling something secret to your auditor?

I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you, Claire - not my intention. Almost every Scientologist I know or have met is a great person. I have nothing but the deepest affection for many of them. But any time someone puts a goal like "clearing the planet" or "saving mankind" as the senior datum in their life, over and above personal concerns, they cannot be trusted.

I know the Admin Tech well enough to know that that is what Scientologists are conditioned to do.

It's not their fault, not entirely. It's the Scientology mindset.

So still, as much as I love them, I say: Never trust a Scientologist.

 

[uniquemand]

I am a little frustrated and sad that many of you say there is no hope for some people. I was a "hopeless" alcoholic for many years. After 10 years of sobriety and helping other addicts and alcoholic over those years, I am here to tell you that even the most seemingly hopeless can change. I have seen miracles over and over again of people getting their lives back, children, families, health, dignity, becoming employable and functioning, and became loving functioning members of society. In 2002 I was unemployed, a criminal, in ill health, suicidal, and broken. Today, I have confidence, I have my reputation back at my job, pay my bills, and have control over my life, and I have God, which is mostly what I was missing while I drowned in a bottle. It is possible to change. Miracles DO happen. I know this because I have seen it with my own eyes. Yes, many do succumb to their addictions and I have lost many friends but what keeps me going are the ones that do make it. Anything is possible. I am proof of that. This is why I am not giving up on this. I am sorry, but I am not calling anyone a lost cause, not anymore.

People can change, Michele. No doubt. However, they have to want to. Does he want to stop being a Scientologist? If not, I wouldn't wait on a miracle. If he does want something else, then you can certainly go on that journey, but if he holds to the Scientology program (despite people comparing it to an addiction, it isn't, it's a problem of having your soul bound to a master through the transference): it's more like servitude than addiction.

 

[TheRealNoUser]

I am a little frustrated and sad that many of you say there is no hope for some people. I was a "hopeless" alcoholic for many years. After 10 years of sobriety and helping other addicts and alcoholic over those years, I am here to tell you that even the most seemingly hopeless can change. I have seen miracles over and over again of people getting their lives back, children, families, health, dignity, becoming employable and functioning, and became loving functioning members of society. In 2002 I was unemployed, a criminal, in ill health, suicidal, and broken. Today, I have confidence, I have my reputation back at my job, pay my bills, and have control over my life, and I have God, which is mostly what I was missing while I drowned in a bottle. It is possible to change. Miracles DO happen. I know this because I have seen it with my own eyes. Yes, many do succumb to their addictions and I have lost many friends but what keeps me going are the ones that do make it. Anything is possible. I am proof of that. This is why I am not giving up on this. I am sorry, but I am not calling anyone a lost cause, not anymore.

I appreciate your position Michele, along with your courage to both help yourself, and others in matters of sobriety.

The thing is, you are not handling one person. You are handling his entire family, and all his friends too. Getting him "off the juice", in this instance, is not just getting him to become sober. His "sobriety" will immediately be attacked by everyone that he knows and loves who are Scientologists. He risks losing all those people, unless of course you are saying that you are going to handle every single one of his family and friends too.

This is not the same as an alcoholic or drug addict. It is worse. The person you are dealing with will not only be convinced that you are an anti-social personality (as defined by Hubbard to describe anyone who is against Scientology), but they will believe that you are destroying their current life - along with every possible lifetime that they may have for eternity.

Scientologists think that this is the only chance for salvation since the dawn of the universe.

This may sound absolutely absurd to you, but this is what Scientologists believe.

If you can get him to start his own investigation into the dark side of Scientology, so that he can discover it for himself - you might stand a chance. Otherwise, you will be seen as "the evil one" who simply wants to stop him from "going free".

Best,

TRNU.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Ever write a KR? Ever put "getting the product" above personal concerns? Ever break a confidence by telling something secret to your auditor?

I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you, Claire - not my intention. Almost every Scientologist I know or have met is a great person. I have nothing but the deepest affection for many of them. But any time someone puts a goal like "clearing the planet" or "saving mankind" as the senior datum in their life, over and above personal concerns, they cannot be trusted.

I know the Admin Tech well enough to know that that is what Scientologists are conditioned to do.

It's not their fault, not entirely. It's the Scientology mindset.

So still, as much as I love them, I say: Never trust a Scientologist.

You don't sound like you're attacking me. You're fine and your points are valid and make sense. I like ya just fine.

I wrote two KRs when in. One against a guy for sexually harassing me. And a commendation one for someone.

No, didn't do the other stuff, either.

Except I did compromise myself by putting up with crap more than I should have.

But I agree that many Scn'ists do the things you've described, for sure. IMHO, though, it's varying degrees. People aren't all the same.

But thing is, someone meeting a member of CofS isn't going to know what kind of guy or gal the person is and they are better off being extremely cautious. I think we could agree on that.

 

[Michele_B]

Well, his family is Christian mostly with a brother who is Atheist and friends are all out of state, thank God. The only Scientology I am dealing with is in his head right now.
I'm glad that all of you have each other, and you are there if someone is trying to get out. A support system can save someone's life. All of you are doing a good thing! You are helping me by explaining this crazy ideology and I greatly appreciate it!

 

[Caliwog]

The only Scientology I am dealing with is in his head right now.

:-/ Unfortunately, that's the worst place for it to be.

I know we're not telling you what you want to hear, and I'm genuinely glad you're taking our advice in the spirit we mean it, and I wish we had more positive stuff to tell you. Keep in mind that you are talking to people who have years of experience with the cult of Scientology, and when a group this diverse, that disagrees on so many topics, is in agreement, well...

 

[TheRealNoUser]

Well, his family is Christian mostly with a brother who is Atheist and friends are all out of state, thank God. The only Scientology I am dealing with is in his head right now.
I'm glad that all of you have each other, and you are there if someone is trying to get out. A support system can save someone's life. All of you are doing a good thing! You are helping me by explaining this crazy ideology and I greatly appreciate it!

There is no such thing as a single Scientologist. Simply no such thing. And it's not all just in his head.

You are being very naive if you believe this, and to use a Scientology term - you need to "up your confront level".

There is always, always a network, whether it be family, friends, business, other Scios - or any combination thereof.

Read this post from another thread (written by HelluvaHoax! to help another girl):
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...otes-from-ESMB&p=675582&viewfull=1#post675582

 

[NoName]

Michelle,since you're a recovering alcoholic, do you know that saying, "You don't have a drinking problem, you have a thinking problem"?

I think that's how it must be for Scilons who were fully indoctrinated. As soon as you have some life issues that are beyond your ability to cope, you fall back into the Scno thinking processes.

My friend was offlines for a long time (I think) and it wasn't until his personal life imploded on many levels that he got really deeply back in.

I would ask David what it is about his life that he thinks Scno will help him handle. If he can answer that honestly, perhaps you can have a productive conversation about why Scno is not the only way to handle it (or even a very good way to handle it).

I think I asked if he was offloaded at one point. It's certainly possible, but back in the day I understand that it was easier to route out standardly. Now that the numbers are so few, it's much harder. I don't know if you want to say the timeframe of his leaving out, but that may help some of the ex-SO's on here be able to tell whether it was standard versus an offload.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Michelle, sorry I threw in a non-english term, but it's nice to see how other people have explained the effect KRs have within the scientology cult. I also notice that since you posted that you are a recovered alcoholic, most people have latched onto that point--and for a very good reason! How long did you kid yourself that you could put down the bottle whenever you chose? How long did you cover up your behavior so as not to have an adverse effect on your employment?

A $cilon has to go through all this without even realizing that there was an addiction in the first place. You will quite rightly remember that the addiction to alcohol came first on pay-day, then probably cigarettes as well. Oops, spent too much already and can't pay the rent.

After more than 20 years out, a friend is still of the mindset that if she needs more money she can just borrow it. I cannot get her to see that further borrowing will not relieve her debt.

$cilon thinking is circular, and introverted. You cannot rescue him, until he's willing to be rescued.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Exactly. Nobody is going to leave anything until they are ready to consider it.

But that being said, it does not hurt to plant a seed. That has, historically speaking, yielded results in many cases.

And this'll sound new agey but what the heck, I'm going for it: think loving thoughts of the person with the hope and goal of those being conveyed to him. It can't hurt! And love is good for ya!!!!!!

 

[programmer_guy]

It's not their fault, not entirely. It's the Scientology mindset.

So still, as much as I love them, I say: Never trust a Scientologist.

Actually, what we said when I was staying at The Manor was "never trust a reg" because they will tell you anything to get your money and their stat for that week.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Michelle, I want to support you in helping David, but I'm more concerned with your own well-being and that of your child, at present.

At some point he needs to help himself, and it seems as if he is not even aware he has a problem. Most Scientologists think it's the rest of the world that has the problem.

You're putting a lot of time, energy and emotion into trying to fix this guy.

Have you still got a sponser? Have you talked over this relationship problem with your sponser? Or someone who has watched your recovery over time who could act as a mentor to you?

How would your life be better if you put some of that same energy and attention into improving your own self and circumstances, your own life, and that of your child?

It seems that from his point of view, what you perceive to be his problems are what he actually sees as the solution to his problems (Scientology).

That's a major difference in viewpoint that is really hard to reconcile.

I think it's o.k. to have faith that everyone can change, but you need to put a stop loss on how much of your life and your love are you willing to invest in this person if he doesn't change? Don't allow the primary focus on your relationship to be "fixing him".

Think it over and set some concrete goals (or deadlines) for yourself. How much longer? Six months? A year? More?

Is he contributing to your lives together and your "family" in the ways that you want? If not, how would you like circumstances to change? How long are you willing to wait to see concrete evidence of those circumstances changing?

In some ways it is better for someone to pursue Scientology in the Freezone or as an Independent...but the crazy basic thinking is still the same...very flawed and abnormal...which is considered normal for and by Scientologists.

My concern for your daughter is that she is being exposed to or influenced by this flawed, skewed Cult thinking on a daily basis. That in itself is harmful.

I wish you all the best.