I need real answers in real English! Please!

[TheRealNoUser]

...snip... I'm working on clearing scientology from my home, my family, and my life forever. That is my goal.

Good for you Michele. Best of luck.

TRNU.

 

[Random guy]

I'm at baby steps right now.

I'm a never-in, but from what I have picked up from Xes following the cult for a few years, baby-steps is the right way to go. The difference in understanding of the world at the inside and the outside is so great, bombarding him with facts will only serve to make him retract into his cult shell. You will have to bring it to him gently, sowing small seeds of doubt here and there.

The Xes talk about "dissonance" and "out-points". The fact that he still want to be with you, despite you being a wog and all is probably his best chance of getting out before the cult breaks him. Make sure he stay in touch with the normal world, read the news etc. If he has any remaining family, try to make him get in touch with them. Encourage him to have an evening out with his (non-cult) mates if he have some. The more connected he is to the actual world, the harder it will be for the cult to lull him onto their make-believe universe of space opera world saving and past lives dramas.

 

[uniquemand]

I appreciate the sentiment of the above, but the reality is: NOBODY will get someone out of the Church except themselves. Giving them information might help, but if you try to push a decision out of a person based on it, they are likely to retreat from you, while they look for a flaw in what you've presented.

While ex-cultists might think that they've had a unique experience, it's actually very similar to the way science progresses. Hard core believers in one theory or another become egoically attached to it, and defend it in the face of contrary evidence or new theories.

That's why new scientific paradigms often require the death of the scientists holding onto the prior paradigm before their ideas can predominate.

 

[uniquemand]

OK. You guys are worked up. Let me just tell you guys what happened recently and maybe some of you might understand, or have had some experience.
One thing that I never understood is why the point of engrams or past injuries is such a big deal when someone in this lifetime suffered severe trauma but those incidences are rarely address and if they are, the time taken on them is minimal. David suffered severe burns when he was about 3 years old. He has a large disfigurement on his chest from this accident. I have had a 3rd degree burn myself and I know how bad the pain is and the treatment may be even more painful than the injury itself. He spent 5 months in the hospital. Scientology/Dianetics never dealt with this. Why? He spent his childhood and then early adulthood hiding his scar. He was self conscious for a long time because of this, but the Cult never helped him but spent hours on his engrams a billion years ago. Why is this life so insignificant? Also, he lost his mother about 17 years ago very suddenly and unexpectedly. The events during and following her death were very unpleasant for him and he never got to grieve for her or deal with the events that followed. Scientology didn't care. The other night, he was talking about an incident that happened between him and his mother and started to tear up. I got him to talk about his mom. I told him that it is OK to remember her, to grieve for her. He did cry, for the first time ever. He let everything out, was able to be sad about her being gone, able to talk about their relationship and his feelings. What a huge deal for him, this emotionless Scientologist! It is things like this that makes me so angry about Scientology. I don't see how it helps at all. Things happen in our lives, this life that has an effect on us and who we are. Why doesn't Scientology address these things?

Scientologists, like any other human being, have emotions. They are trained to suppress them and deal with them ONLY in-session with their auditor. They have embraced Spock-like rational living, and there's nothing wrong with that, IMO, unless that suppression never is released. I'm not saying I agree with it, because I think people should be able to handle emotional expression, but I do understand the reasoning.

Scientology DOES address these things, and it's hard to say why it wasn't addressed in this guy's history. Typically, anything sitting immediately below the surface should be handled on what is called "Life Repair". Sometimes, a person won't touch something like that until they do "New Era Dianetics", which is one of the last steps before "Clear" on their "Bridge". Hubbard created a long runway before systematic eradication of "engrams", and that runway consists of what is called the "Grades", which address other phenomena (problems, upsets, communication blocks, confession, fixed ideas, etc.). When Hubbard first came out with Dianetics, he hadn't invented the grades yet. Until the mid-70's, Dianetics was still an entry point onto his "Bridge", but sometime in the 70's, it was pushed to the top, while the other grades were handled first (which I think is a stupendous error). A person might still experience some relief from Dianetics early on as a "basic course", but the systematic search and destroy of engrams is now something that happens later in the Scientologist's journey.

To get back to "Life Repair": this is an action that depends on the person looking for help. If they have a bunch of traumatic experiences which are currently still on their mind, they should be addressed in Life Repair. However, this requires a skilled auditor and case supervisor, and it seems that most orgs don't deliver it anymore much at all. If you would like him to get the help that he wants within his own paradigm, ask him why he hasn't had a "Life Repair", or why he's never addressed this stuff within Dianetics. This might help him wake up, after he asks his Church reps ("examiner", "c/s", "auditor", etc.).

However, I wouldn't hold your breath for an answer.

 

[Michele_B]

Thanks for the advice Unique but it seems there has been enough damage done and if he were to go back to the church, the small amount of progress that has been made would be gone. Its like telling an alcoholic to just have one drink. That is just not possible. I think the main reason for both of us to not get involved with the church is because of the inhuman treatment. Causing suffering of others is against my religion and he is coming to realize that DM is an evil bastard and the church is corrupt. As for FZ, I don't think the whole concept is healthy. No offense.

 

[uniquemand]

I wasn't trying to sell you the concepts or the FZ. Perhaps you mistook explanation for a sales pitch.

Get out, stay out, and steer clear of the Church of Scientology, or any Scientology. However, if you want to KNOW about it, or talk about it, this is the place.

 

[NoName]

Some people get out via the Freezone, Michelle. It is comforting that they can still receive services outside the Co$. Getting out is a process that usually starts with the idea that Ron and the Tech are good and DM is the problem.

To use the addict analogy, FZ is like a methadone clinic to some. You know it can't go on forever, but in the beginning you're just glad for a safer alternative to h.

 

[Neverknew]

Hi Michelle. I am new to all of this too and the best that I can tell is that (the book) Scientology is like the Dungeon Master's Guide in Dungeons and Dragons. Like mushrooms they want you to eat crap and grow in the darkness.
Honestly (I can tell you now) Scientologists (the hard core, wackos) are people that I would totally f#*k with if I have to be in their company. "Why is a raven like a writingdesk?" type crap. If it is so great why can't they explain it? If it works then why are all these people in this forum? It seems that they take things way too seriously and childishly. "I've got it and you can't have it unless you be my friend forever. Unquestioningly!" Bullspit! They can have it like a plague that I don't want to begin with.

 

[Michele_B]

Hi NeverKnew. Yeah, this stuff is pretty out there. It is the worst rabbit hole I think I have ever encountered. I read your post and you are getting some answers as well and it looks like you have come to about the same conclusion as me. I am not only against the church but I am PISSED OFF! I am angry that people are being abused and imprisoned, and there isn't anyone doing anything about it, as far as authorities go. I am angry about the treatment of children and how in God's name can anyone just abandon and disown their children? I'm shaking my head. This religion has damaged someone close to me, and I am fighting it with everything I have.

 

[NoName]

I can't wait til the day i can be openly pissed off as myself. I'm still hoping for Good Roads/Fair Weather when he gets back from Flag.....

 

[Neverknew]

I don't understand what Country I live in as far as this crap goes. The U.S. constitution is supposed to protect people (here at least) and the Geneva Conv for those abroad. I guess it would be rediculously redundant to ask who these people are screwing seeing how it's everybody

 

[uniquemand]

I don't understand what Country I live in as far as this crap goes. The U.S. constitution is supposed to protect people (here at least) and the Geneva Conv for those abroad. I guess it would be rediculously redundant to ask who these people are screwing seeing how it's everybody

People, due to Citizen's United decision, in the USA, includes any and all corporations. Including the Church of Scientology and it's subsidiary corporations.

 

[Claire Swazey]

I don't understand what Country I live in as far as this crap goes. The U.S. constitution is supposed to protect people (here at least) and the Geneva Conv for those abroad. I guess it would be rediculously redundant to ask who these people are screwing seeing how it's everybody

I don't think that the US constitution protects people from predators, nor would the Geneva Convention. I believe that the latter protects people from war crimes, IIRC and the former protects the citizens from their own government.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Some people get out via the Freezone, Michelle. It is comforting that they can still receive services outside the Co$. Getting out is a process that usually starts with the idea that Ron and the Tech are good and DM is the problem.

To use the addict analogy, FZ is like a methadone clinic to some. You know it can't go on forever, but in the beginning you're just glad for a safer alternative to h.

I also want to point out that discussing the way a Scn drill works or what the concept is, is not the same thing as defending it or recommending it. If someone's defending something, they would say that it's fine, no worries, nothing wrong with it. If someone's recommending something, they will say "you should do this".

If they just tell you that Tab A goes into Slot B or whatever it is, they're just describing the way the goddamn thing is done. Jesus Fucking Christ.

 

[Claire Swazey]

I also want to say that the thread title "I need real answers in real English" seems to indicate that the author wanted real answers in real English. So she got 'em.

 

[Michele_B]

Im not getting the hostility. What did I miss? I appreciate all of the information and advise. I may not agree but I'm learning things. I want a poll. How many of you believe the OT III Xenu and body thetans?

 

[NoName]

Not me. I don't believe in the space cooties.

 

[TheRealNoUser]

Im not getting the hostility. What did I miss? I appreciate all of the information and advise. I may not agree but I'm learning things. I want a poll. How many of you believe the OT III Xenu and body thetans?

It doesn't matter if you believe in the body thetans.

They believe in you.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Im not getting the hostility. What did I miss? I appreciate all of the information and advise. I may not agree but I'm learning things. I want a poll. How many of you believe the OT III Xenu and body thetans?

No "hostility", Michele, as such. It's just that NoName and I have been explaining to you why we would answer from a procedural standpoint and why that does not constitute personal interest and involvement in Scientology. Given what you'd said the other week, I think our commentary is warranted.

Your question above seems a rather odd one to be asking a message board that's probably at least 90% ex members who have not opted to go Free Zone. My guess is that you will receive little or no "yes" answers on a forum like this.

 

[NoName]

It doesn't matter if you believe in the body thetans.

They believe in you.

in Soviet Union, body thetan audits YOU!