It protacts from those known to be violent and I thought this was a war. Sorry
I need real answers in real English! Please!
- Thread starter Michele_B
- Start date
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
It doesn't "protect from those known to be violent".
What the law needs to do is protect children first of all. The law is also required to investigate elder abuse if it is reported by a mandatory reporting party. Has anyone looked into the mandatory reporting laws? A caregiver, teacher, medical personnel, and law enforcement are required to report any suspected child or elder abuse and follow up and/or investigation is also required. If there is a report by anyone in the Church or an eye witness, the authorities are bound by law to respond. If Scientology uses loopholes to break the law, then members and ex members can use some loopholes of their own right? Mandatory reporting is CA law. There may be other laws requiring reporting in other states. Also, didn't a federal law just pass, Caylee's Law that makes it a felony to not report a missing child within 24 Hrs. That is another legal consideration in helping these people, and especially the kids!
Bea Kiddo
Crusader
There is no-one within the church who would ever report it. And then those that leave: there is such a hold on them that there is a fear to report anything. Then by the time you realize you should report, has the statute of limitations been exceeded?
I know that when I was in, there was a child who was a Sea Org member and she got really upset one night (about 10pm, she should have already been home in bed but she was still working) and drank a bottle of rubbing alcohol and called 911 and begged them to not tell anyone from the church anything about her. I just happen to be passing by where they were picking her up (across from the org) and tried to ask them where they were taking her. Finally when I told them I would be able to contact her father, then they told me which hospital she was being taken to.
The day after this, the whole org was prepared for a visit from Child Protective services. I think we did get one. We had all the kids and parents ready with answers. They are always ready. It's ridiculous.
And the child neglect is all over my story, having been raised in the Sea Org.
It's crazy and unbelievable.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
I apologize for helping the Church with their public image when I was ignorant. It was irresponsible of me to do this when I wasn't informed about their actual activities.
I'm sorry!
It sounds to me like the people who are in or SO gravely lack common sense. I read a story where there was a car accident and they left a passenger in the car bleeding and dieing because instead of calling 911, like a person with half a brain, the SO people went to Flag to find out what they should do. Stupid!!!! Fact is that there are crimes being inflicted upon people. When there is a crime being committed, you call the COPS, not Scientology Execs! I cried when I read your story Bea. I look at my little girl and cannot comprehend putting her through such hell. I can't imagine abandoning her or handing her over to strangers. It is so so wrong!!!!
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
When I was in the cult, I saw a car on the side of the road with a woman slumped over, half falling out of an open door. I phoned the police. When I got to work the next day, my coworkers all said they'd have stopped to help her rather than call 911. NONE of them were Scientologists, by the way.
When I was in the cult, I had TWO surgeries. Well, if you consider the fact I was all but out the second time, ok, count it as one.
It really depends on the Scientologist, whether or not they have common sense about matters medical. (or anything else) AND it depends on how deep/intense their involvement is. If they're in the SO doesn't matter how much common sense they have, they've pretty much got to be where they're told to go, and see whom they're told to see. There are many accounts here of life in the SO.
Cults are dangerous, cults are bad, for the most part. One of the reasons they are dangerous is that they presume to know what's best for members and their families- often without benefit of medical training. But, again, there are different sorts of culties with different access to medical treatment (public, Class V Org or Mission staff are more likely to go to the doctor as they live on their own) and varying degrees of indoctrination.
When I was in the cult, I had TWO surgeries. Well, if you consider the fact I was all but out the second time, ok, count it as one.
It really depends on the Scientologist, whether or not they have common sense about matters medical. (or anything else) AND it depends on how deep/intense their involvement is. If they're in the SO doesn't matter how much common sense they have, they've pretty much got to be where they're told to go, and see whom they're told to see. There are many accounts here of life in the SO.
Cults are dangerous, cults are bad, for the most part. One of the reasons they are dangerous is that they presume to know what's best for members and their families- often without benefit of medical training. But, again, there are different sorts of culties with different access to medical treatment (public, Class V Org or Mission staff are more likely to go to the doctor as they live on their own) and varying degrees of indoctrination.
Royal Prince Xenu
Trust the Psi Corps.
For me, this goes both ways when I was on staff. I had my appendix removed (unnecessarily as it turned out to be kidney stones) and not one person from the org visited me whilst in hospital.
Another event was whilst walking home with a temporary flat-mate and we passed a girl completely passed out in the gutter. He wanted to keep walking. I insisted we had to help her, as "home" was not so far away. Between us, we carried her home and kept an eye on her until she came round. She had ODed, but because someone had bothered about her life she set out to straighten herself up and kick the habit. Whether she was successful at the time I don't know.
Lastly was a pair of children that I used to baby-sit on weekends for Foundation staff. The younger had fallen across a heater, and the burn extended right across her belly. On an adult, we are talking about something four inches wide! Had the parents sought treatment when it happened, it would have just been any other household accident, but they had left it (medical intervention was unnecessary). I was straight off to the children's hospital to have the wound cleaned and dressed. It was an horrific experience, and resulted in KRs galore.
What are KR's Prince? Sorry but I don't understand the Scientology language. I've tried to understand it but I just don't.
The reason I was asking if anyone still believed the Xenu story or BT's is because my boyfriend still believes it. He said the whole reason for Sec Checks and O/W's is because OT's are powerful and this part of the tech is necessary to make sure that their "powers" are under control. I think its horseshit and just another means to control a person.
I want everyone to understand that I have always left the door open for him. There have been many times when I told him to go ahead and go back to staff, join the SO if it makes him so happy. Just go ahead and do it. He doesn't. He stays. Why? I think there are many reasons. First of all, he has always thought that he was this rogue person, without a group, by himself forever! Then he met me, and my little girl and he found himself with a family and I think he likes it. It is something he never had as an adult. I also think that deep down, he listens to what I say and sees that Scientology is not the answer, plus, he knows that spending money on the church is stupid and if he did give them money, I would be really pissed. He doesn't want to lose me, so he chooses to stay and not take any courses or get involved. I do think that he has been looking into Indie stuff though. I guess I don't mind too much about that. The tech "works" for him so if there is a less cultish and controlling way to do it, then I guess it would be alright. Its just not for me. I choose a more peaceful spiritual path.
The reason I was asking if anyone still believed the Xenu story or BT's is because my boyfriend still believes it. He said the whole reason for Sec Checks and O/W's is because OT's are powerful and this part of the tech is necessary to make sure that their "powers" are under control. I think its horseshit and just another means to control a person.
I want everyone to understand that I have always left the door open for him. There have been many times when I told him to go ahead and go back to staff, join the SO if it makes him so happy. Just go ahead and do it. He doesn't. He stays. Why? I think there are many reasons. First of all, he has always thought that he was this rogue person, without a group, by himself forever! Then he met me, and my little girl and he found himself with a family and I think he likes it. It is something he never had as an adult. I also think that deep down, he listens to what I say and sees that Scientology is not the answer, plus, he knows that spending money on the church is stupid and if he did give them money, I would be really pissed. He doesn't want to lose me, so he chooses to stay and not take any courses or get involved. I do think that he has been looking into Indie stuff though. I guess I don't mind too much about that. The tech "works" for him so if there is a less cultish and controlling way to do it, then I guess it would be alright. Its just not for me. I choose a more peaceful spiritual path.
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
It's good to see that there is a variety of personality types and degrees of common sense in CofS members, as you and I used to be, RPX.
I do think that cultism is contra to really having common sense, in the main, since they do isolate people from the real world- or they surely try their damndest.
But I do sometimes feel I should take up the idea of maybe unduly stereotyping people one does not know.
It's like this- I've been doing a lot of meditation and a message I keep getting is to not judge people. It's easy to think of a group of people in the abstract. I think we all have a tendency to do it. I know for a fact that I do it and I'm really not happy that I do that sometimes. So it ends up being something I would want to discuss when I think I see something like that.
I do think that cultism is contra to really having common sense, in the main, since they do isolate people from the real world- or they surely try their damndest.
But I do sometimes feel I should take up the idea of maybe unduly stereotyping people one does not know.
It's like this- I've been doing a lot of meditation and a message I keep getting is to not judge people. It's easy to think of a group of people in the abstract. I think we all have a tendency to do it. I know for a fact that I do it and I'm really not happy that I do that sometimes. So it ends up being something I would want to discuss when I think I see something like that.
TheRealNoUser
Patron with Honors
Thank you for the update Michele. I just re-read the entire thread (skipping a few pieces here and there). It seems that some progress has been made since your first post. Is it much more calm for you now?
Has your guy been reading any of this thread or some of the other critical websites out there? Can he handle this information yet? Or does he just close himself off from it? It is a very difficult thing to come to terms with the fact that you have been conned.
TRNU.
P.S. To answer your question ... KR's are "Knowledge Reports". This is something that Scientologists do to inform on their fellow members who are not doing exactly what Hubbard says to do. They write up a "Knowledge Report" and hand it in to the "Ethics Officer" who will take the action deemed necessary against the offending person. It's basically like Communism where people will get extra rations for reporting on others. Quite vile and repulsive really, but that's Scientology for you.
P.P.S. I hope that you are keeping your little girl away from this madness.
Has your guy been reading any of this thread or some of the other critical websites out there? Can he handle this information yet? Or does he just close himself off from it? It is a very difficult thing to come to terms with the fact that you have been conned.
TRNU.
P.S. To answer your question ... KR's are "Knowledge Reports". This is something that Scientologists do to inform on their fellow members who are not doing exactly what Hubbard says to do. They write up a "Knowledge Report" and hand it in to the "Ethics Officer" who will take the action deemed necessary against the offending person. It's basically like Communism where people will get extra rations for reporting on others. Quite vile and repulsive really, but that's Scientology for you.
P.P.S. I hope that you are keeping your little girl away from this madness.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
Think Orwell. KR stands for Knowledge Reports. Whenever you find something not happening correctly (according to how you understand Scientology tech and policy), you write a Knowledge Report, giving who did it, what the situation is, how it is happening, when it is happening, etc. This is so that Scientology's internal police will have reports to operate on when they selectively enforce policy to harass and extort people.
TheRealNoUser
Patron with Honors
Michele,
Make sure you read this excellent post:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...y-beloved-one!&p=674786&viewfull=1#post674786
You may have seen it, as I see that you actually posted some helpful info in that thread for someone else, but read it again and again.
TRNU.
Make sure you read this excellent post:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...y-beloved-one!&p=674786&viewfull=1#post674786
You may have seen it, as I see that you actually posted some helpful info in that thread for someone else, but read it again and again.
TRNU.
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
Yah, there's also KRs written to commend people. Needless to say, that doesn't happen very often.
The KR thing is kind of Soviet, IMO.
The KR thing is kind of Soviet, IMO.
TheRealNoUser
Patron with Honors
Further point about K.R.'s (Knowledge Reports) ...
If any of his Scientologist friends find out that he is investigating indie groups, they will write up a K.R. on him, and the entire situation with you will then be investigated by the Scientology Ethics department.
You will probably be declared as a Suppressive Person.
You may then soon find yourself to be the victim of a Fair Game campaign to destroy you, your family, and your reputation. If they find that your child is the most important thing to you, they may try to have her taken away from you by manufacturing anything that they can use and report to Social Services.
They will stop at nothing.
Read this minding-numbing opening paragraph from the post I mentioned earlier:
Do not underestimate these people. Protect yourself and your family at all costs.
TRNU.
If you do not believe me, just Google - Scientology Fair Game Paulette Cooper
http://www.scientology-lies.com/human-face-of-scientology/paulette-cooper.html
"In 1968, journalist Paulette Cooper wrote an article about Scientology for Queen magazine in the U.K. In 1971, she published a book, The Scandal of Scientology.
In retaliation, Scientology executives carried out a program of orchestrated intimidation. Scientologists framed Cooper for sending bomb threats, libelled her to her neighbors, infiltrated her life by fraudulently befriending her, and filed 19 lawsuits against her. After prosecutors on the bomb threat case demanded that she see a psychologist for a year, Scientologists broke into her therapist's office and stole her confidential records. Scientologists discussed murdering her."
If any of his Scientologist friends find out that he is investigating indie groups, they will write up a K.R. on him, and the entire situation with you will then be investigated by the Scientology Ethics department.
You will probably be declared as a Suppressive Person.
You may then soon find yourself to be the victim of a Fair Game campaign to destroy you, your family, and your reputation. If they find that your child is the most important thing to you, they may try to have her taken away from you by manufacturing anything that they can use and report to Social Services.
They will stop at nothing.
Read this minding-numbing opening paragraph from the post I mentioned earlier:
Do not underestimate these people. Protect yourself and your family at all costs.
TRNU.
If you do not believe me, just Google - Scientology Fair Game Paulette Cooper
http://www.scientology-lies.com/human-face-of-scientology/paulette-cooper.html
"In 1968, journalist Paulette Cooper wrote an article about Scientology for Queen magazine in the U.K. In 1971, she published a book, The Scandal of Scientology.
In retaliation, Scientology executives carried out a program of orchestrated intimidation. Scientologists framed Cooper for sending bomb threats, libelled her to her neighbors, infiltrated her life by fraudulently befriending her, and filed 19 lawsuits against her. After prosecutors on the bomb threat case demanded that she see a psychologist for a year, Scientologists broke into her therapist's office and stole her confidential records. Scientologists discussed murdering her."
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Thanks NoUser. David is not in the Church right now. He hasn't been for over 15 years. He says he can't go back until he pays a freeloader debt, which he is not going to pay. His brief story of leaving goes something like this.
He was training as an auditor and the OT that was running the mission had planned for him to go to LA for Auditor IV training but he went to Flag and didn't come back and the new person that came in scrapped the plan to go to LA because of financial reasons so they offered him something else, something he didn't want to do (he still won't say what it was) so he went to the OTIII Nancy and told her that he was leaving. Someone said that they thought he might have been offloaded because his exit sounded just WAY to easy. I think they are right. He says he routed out on his own and though they tried to pursuade him to stay on stay and to join the SO, he still refused so he routed out and moved to another state, and hasn't gotten any other COS services. There was also a communication break between him and Nancy over her backing out of a promise she made to him.
He still very much believes everything Scientology fed him. He still considers it the "truth". As for the church messing with my daughter, I don't have a single problem with putting a hole in anyone's head who decides to harm my child. Besides, I have worked for cops and lawyers for 15 years and know all the cops, the DA, and a couple of judges that I worked for so any attempt to defame me would be a wash for them. I know too many people. As long as I keep him away from the church and continue to slowly show him the real truth, I think we are fairly safe from the grips of the goons.
He was training as an auditor and the OT that was running the mission had planned for him to go to LA for Auditor IV training but he went to Flag and didn't come back and the new person that came in scrapped the plan to go to LA because of financial reasons so they offered him something else, something he didn't want to do (he still won't say what it was) so he went to the OTIII Nancy and told her that he was leaving. Someone said that they thought he might have been offloaded because his exit sounded just WAY to easy. I think they are right. He says he routed out on his own and though they tried to pursuade him to stay on stay and to join the SO, he still refused so he routed out and moved to another state, and hasn't gotten any other COS services. There was also a communication break between him and Nancy over her backing out of a promise she made to him.
He still very much believes everything Scientology fed him. He still considers it the "truth". As for the church messing with my daughter, I don't have a single problem with putting a hole in anyone's head who decides to harm my child. Besides, I have worked for cops and lawyers for 15 years and know all the cops, the DA, and a couple of judges that I worked for so any attempt to defame me would be a wash for them. I know too many people. As long as I keep him away from the church and continue to slowly show him the real truth, I think we are fairly safe from the grips of the goons.
Caliwog
Patron Meritorious
I disagree -- I think Michele is in an "out-gradient" situation. Scientologists aren't supposed to show the bat-shit crazy side to "Wogs" like Michele, but he is. He hasn't learned to disseminate and could probably get himself hauled into a cramming session!
Michele, if you are still reading - you are seeing what Scientology really is, which is bat-shit crazy. They are supposed to hide this so that new people don't run away screaming. That's how they rope in people like your boyfriend.
You should seriously RUN AWAY FROM THIS MAN AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. Especially if you have kids in the home.
You will not convince him that Scientology is a crock. L. Ron Hubbard saw that one coming, and Scientology has methods of "handling" doubting spouses.
What happens if you stay?
Best case scenario: He realizes you aren't going to become a Scientologist and he breaks up with you.
Worst case scenario: He starts dipping into your bank account, or selling your stuff, or skipping household bills to pay for services. Or he gets your kid to start studying Scientology, and then your kid disconnects from you, too.
It's like living with a drug addict.
And the indies and freezoners are no better. They are waging a public relations campaign saying that David Miscavige is the real problem with Scientology. They are trying to whitewash L.Ron Hubbard, but they are in the same business as the Church, which is selling LRH bullshit for profit. And their targets are people like your boyfriend, people who might see the light, but still have a few more dollars left to be squeezed out of them. (To be fair, they don't see it that way, because they believe in the bullshit too -- but this is the net effect.)
Scientology, as written by Hubbard, is a scam. Doesn't matter who your boyfriend pays for services. It's a money-making, soul-sucking scam.
Get the hell out as soon as you can, Michele. I'm serious.
BTW, I wrote a blog entry on how perfectly sensible people get sucked into this sci-fi bullshit:
http://caliwog.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/but-the-technology-works/
Anyway, seriously sorry about your boyfriend being a Scientologist. Now, once more, get out before he drags you and your kid(s) down with him.
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Caliwog
Patron Meritorious
And another thing, Michele - never, ever, ever trust a Scientologist. Period.
That may sound pretty terrible, or discriminatory, or whatever, and I really don't care. That's what experience has taught me. Their allegiance to "saving mankind" will ALWAYS be senior to their allegiance to you.
I repeat: Never trust a Scientologist.
That may sound pretty terrible, or discriminatory, or whatever, and I really don't care. That's what experience has taught me. Their allegiance to "saving mankind" will ALWAYS be senior to their allegiance to you.
I repeat: Never trust a Scientologist.
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
Well, you're better off not trusting people in a cult, yeah. When in doubt, take the path of caution.
But I will say this- I wasn't like that when I was in. In fact, a friend of mine at work had said to me that she was looking for something, Scn sounded good, what could I tell her...cuz she knew I was a member, as I was then. I already knew how grasping and greedy the cult was- even though I still loved the cult then- and I knew this friend tended to worry about money a great deal. I steered her away from it.
One size does not fit all.
But I will say this- I wasn't like that when I was in. In fact, a friend of mine at work had said to me that she was looking for something, Scn sounded good, what could I tell her...cuz she knew I was a member, as I was then. I already knew how grasping and greedy the cult was- even though I still loved the cult then- and I knew this friend tended to worry about money a great deal. I steered her away from it.
One size does not fit all.
I am a little frustrated and sad that many of you say there is no hope for some people. I was a "hopeless" alcoholic for many years. After 10 years of sobriety and helping other addicts and alcoholic over those years, I am here to tell you that even the most seemingly hopeless can change. I have seen miracles over and over again of people getting their lives back, children, families, health, dignity, becoming employable and functioning, and became loving functioning members of society. In 2002 I was unemployed, a criminal, in ill health, suicidal, and broken. Today, I have confidence, I have my reputation back at my job, pay my bills, and have control over my life, and I have God, which is mostly what I was missing while I drowned in a bottle. It is possible to change. Miracles DO happen. I know this because I have seen it with my own eyes. Yes, many do succumb to their addictions and I have lost many friends but what keeps me going are the ones that do make it. Anything is possible. I am proof of that. This is why I am not giving up on this. I am sorry, but I am not calling anyone a lost cause, not anymore.
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