The Current State of Scientology

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

Good post, I agree.

I'd only add that there are quite a bit of "something betters" built on false foundations, that nevertheless continue to thrive. Big and small examples: Christianity, Islam, Mindfulness meditation, Bikram yoga...

Good post, I agree.

I'd only add that there are quite a bit of "something betters" built on false foundations, that nevertheless continue to thrive. Big and small examples: Christianity, Islam, Mindfulness meditation, Bikram yoga...

What are you going on about?

It seems you have a lot of certainty.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

You're talking about on Venus of course, I mean here on Earth.

No Stratsie, not at all...

I was surprised myself but that was reported in the mainstream press

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Well it seems like Miscavige's Scientology is about ready to fall apart; I wonder what will happen when it does.

Jesus!

It does semm that way

But it has seemed that way for quite some time.

When he rehabilitated Marty I was sure that was the last act of a desperate man but nope...

 

[Karakorum]

What are you going on about?

It seems you have a lot of certainty.

My main issue with scientology is the manipulation and abuse of its members, both mental and financial. Don't get me wrong: I entirely believe that the tech doesn't work. I lost my faith in the tech when I was maybe 12, ok?

But as long as they do not maliciously abuse other members, I'm not gonna start a war with independent scientology just because their tech doesn't work and that their belief in the deceased leader is bogus. If I did that, I would then need to start a war with Islam, Christianity and even silly Bikram Yoga. Otherwise I'd be a hypocrite.

If you feel my views on these issues are misguided and there is some book, body of facts or other piece of data that you feel would change my mind, please let me know. I am sincerely open to have a level-headed debate.

 

[Sheila Lindsay Day]

Jesus!

It does semm that way

But it has seemed that way for quite some time.

When he rehabilitated Marty I was sure that was the last act of a desperate man but nope...

Yeah, maybe it will keep on shrinking and shrinking until all that is left is Miscavige and Tom Cruise playing golf. I don't know.

 

[Dotey OT]

My main issue with scientology is the manipulation and abuse of its members, both mental and financial. Don't get me wrong: I entirely believe that the tech doesn't work. I lost my faith in the tech when I was maybe 12, ok?

But as long as they do not maliciously abuse other members, I'm not gonna start a war with independent scientology just because their tech doesn't work and that their belief in the deceased leader is bogus. If I did that, I would then need to start a war with Islam, Christianity and even silly Bikram Yoga. Otherwise I'd be a hypocrite.

If you feel my views on these issues are misguided and there is some book, body of facts or other piece of data that you feel would change my mind, please let me know. I am sincerely open to have a level-headed debate.

But there is, built in to the "tech", false and utter bogus bullshit that is only there for the sake of trapping people in. It is as insidious, and it's as commonly used, as in the references on Blows, overts, etc. It's bogus and he knew it was bogus. Those who are in are the negative effect of this stuff. It can't easily be switched off and/or sorted out.

 

[Voodoo]

CoS has been in crisis for at least ten years.

Maybe it is at last coming to a point where the IAS will no longer accept dave's incompetence

The IAS will accept whatever Dave tells them to accept, or else. There isn't a single person, or combination of people, in the whole organization, who has the backbone to challenge him in any way.

Their ship is going down, but there's nothing they can do to stop it because their Captain is a vicious psychopath who couldn't care less about them or Scientology.

 

[Voodoo]

Well it seems like Miscavige's Scientology is about ready to fall apart...

Man, how many times have we heard that in the last several years? I wish it would pancake, but somehow it just keeps limping along anyway.

It is fascinating, though, isn't it? I really do need to slow down and savor this "brief moment in eternity". I lose patience sometimes because the collapse of the cult is moving in slow motion, while life runs at normal speed. I have to remind myself that the collapse isn't coming - they're in the midst of it now.

Between about 2009 and 2015 there seemed to be a scandal a week concerning the cult, but they seemed to have clamped down on major flaps and PR disasters since then.

I wonder what will happen when it does.

I don't know, but it sure will be entertaining to see.

 

[Gib]

The whole thing needs to be shit canned. There is no Bridge to Total Freedom.

 

[Karakorum]

I don't believe a cult is an "either is or not" thing. There are degrees of "cultishness" in most spiritual movements.

But there is, built in to the "tech", false and utter bogus bullshit that is only there for the sake of trapping people in.
It is as insidious, and it's as commonly used, as in the references on Blows, overts, etc. It's bogus and he knew it was bogus. Those who are in are the negative effect of this stuff. It can't easily be switched off and/or sorted out.

Yes, but the same is true with Christianity such as the UMC or the Catholic Church. They are built on false foundations, have tech that does not work, include guilt&shame inducing practices and the good things people get from it are mostly well-designed placebo.

I am aware of all of this.

Yet, once a religion is free of the more malicious elements (like scientology's approach to the elderly or abortions etc.), I will treat it with a "live and let live" altitude. That's how I treat the Catholic Church for example.

Once any independent scientology movement becomes as benign as say the UMC or the Catholic Church, I will likewise put it in the "live and let live" category. I'm not gonna hop on the Dawkins crusade bandwagon, becuase I think its a waste of time and effort.

 

[strativarius]

No Stratsie, not at all...

I was surprised myself but[bcolor=#ffff00] that was reported in the mainstream press[/bcolor]

Oh, well it must definitely be true then ...

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Oh, well it must definitely be true then ...

A point well taken Stratsie...

No...

Just for being reported in the mainstream press doesn't mean it's true and one should always be wary of the mainstream media. "Freedom of the press belongs to the man who owns one" and in America ninety percent of media is owned by a small and nearly homogenous group

And in the other ten percent you'll find lies far too wild for the mainstream manipulators

 

[Clay Pigeon]

The whole thing needs to be shit canned. There is no Bridge to Total Freedom.

Anyone who wants to shitcan it is free to do so.

Anyone who wants to study it is also free to do so and you would be wise to improve your respect for our just and lawful rights

 

[Clay Pigeon]

The IAS will accept whatever Dave tells them to accept, or else. There isn't a single person, or combination of people, in the whole organization, who has the backbone to challenge him in any way.

Their ship is going down, but there's nothing they can do to stop it because their Captain is a vicious psychopath who couldn't care less about them or Scientology.

I don't know as I'd accuse Davey of being a vicious psychopath

But he is a Catholic and CoS is run by Catholics intent upon mutilating Ron's work the same way they mutilated the teaching of the Nazarene

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

My main issue with scientology is the manipulation and abuse of its members, both mental and financial. Don't get me wrong: I entirely believe that the tech doesn't work. I lost my faith in the tech when I was maybe 12, ok?

But as long as they do not maliciously abuse other members, I'm not gonna start a war with independent scientology just because their tech doesn't work and that their belief in the deceased leader is bogus. If I did that, I would then need to start a war with Islam, Christianity and even silly Bikram Yoga. Otherwise I'd be a hypocrite.

If you feel my views on these issues are misguided and there is some book, body of facts or other piece of data that you feel would change my mind, please let me know. I am sincerely open to have a level-headed debate.

You seem so certain of the "false foundations" of mindfulness meditation, Bikram Yoga, Christianity, etc. That's what I'm asking about.

I have certainty to the false foundations of Scientology, regardless of what "zone" it's practiced in.

 

[Karakorum]

You seem so certain of the "false foundations" of mindfulness meditation, Bikram Yoga, Christianity, etc. That's what I'm asking about.

I have certainty to the false foundations of Scientology, regardless of what "zone" it's practiced in.

Oh yes, I mean exactly what I wrote. I can go into some details:

1. Christianity is based on unquestioning commitment to its dead leader proclaimed to be the messiahg and the only savior. The whole thing is set up to induce feelings of guilt&shame over sins, and worst of all there is the belief in "the power of prayer" (which is simply tech that does not work). Its much better than scientology, and cherishes family and new life, so I'm "live and let live" to it. I would still recommend potential new members to stay clear of it because of the reasons I mentioned.

2. Mindfulness meditation - basic meditation techniques, wrapped in with psychology-sepak mumbo-jumbo and some mind-altering practices (without openly telling practitioners that these are mind altering alpha-theta states). Packaged as stress-reducing and work-improving happiness thing. In short: Big promises, hard sell, money, money money. At its best it can be an into to real meditation. At worst it can be an deceitful hard-sell scam going after your money.

3. Bikram Yoga - shares the qualities ith mindfulness (money-money, hard-sell packaged for wealthy corporate people, 7000$ per 9 week intensives), but its worse because it uses additional mind-altering factors (artificially high room temperature), plus Bikram Choudhury has all the cult-guru thing going on. Oh and the celebrity-endorsement-hunting thing exactly like scn. Its the worst one of the three.
It would be quite dangerous, if it wasn't so silly and hilarious. Of the three, this one has gone past "live and let live" - I'm not at war eith them, but I warn everyone I know of it and tell them there are far better and less greedy Yoga schools.

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

Oh yes, I mean exactly what I wrote. I can go into some details:

1. Christianity is based on unquestioning commitment to its dead leader proclaimed to be the messiahg and the only savior. The whole thing is set up to induce feelings of guilt&shame over sins, and worst of all there is the belief in "the power of prayer" (which is simply tech that does not work). Its much better than scientology, and cherishes family and new life, so I'm "live and let live" to it. I would still recommend potential new members to stay clear of it because of the reasons I mentioned.

2. Mindfulness meditation - basic meditation techniques, wrapped in with psychology-sepak mumbo-jumbo and some mind-altering practices (without openly telling practitioners that these are mind altering alpha-theta states). Packaged as stress-reducing and work-improving happiness thing. In short: Big promises, hard sell, money, money money. At its best it can be an into to real meditation. At worst it can be an deceitful hard-sell scam going after your money.

3. Bikram Yoga - shares the qualities ith mindfulness (money-money, hard-sell packaged for wealthy corporate people, 7000$ per 9 week intensives), but its worse because it uses additional mind-altering factors (artificially high room temperature), plus Bikram Choudhury has all the cult-guru thing going on. Oh and the celebrity-endorsement-hunting thing exactly like scn. Its the worst one of the three.
It would be quite dangerous, if it wasn't so silly and hilarious. Of the three, this one has gone past "live and let live" - I'm not at war eith them, but I warn everyone I know of it and tell them there are far better and less greedy Yoga schools.

Complete nonsense.

Billions of people the world over report feelings of relief from prayer.

Mindfulness meditation is free. Want to get started? Google it.

My Bikram Yoga studio costs $100.00/month.

 

[Karakorum]

Mindfulness meditation is free. Want to get started? Google it.

Mindfulness meditation free? Never seen that. The nearest place to me (local franchise of Mindfulness Association UK) that offers it charges 25% of the national monthly average wage for a two-day course.

My Bikram Yoga studio costs $100.00/month.

Count yourself lucky. At least its a cheap scam in your case.

Billions of people the world over report feelings of relief from prayer.

Its placebo. Prayer does not provide any reliable, repeatable effects, no more than auditing. It sometimes works, sometiems does not and you need to believe in it to even have chance of it working. Oh and prayer certainly does not reliably cure anyone from somatic disease, nor does it prevent road accidents and all the other stuff people pray for.

Anecdotal evidence warning: My dad spent years praying for my sis to leave scientology, little good it did him.

For me to consider it "working tech" it would need to provide consistent, measurable and repeatable results regardless if the person praying believes or not. Aspirin works regardless who takes it and if he/she believes in it.

Again: Most christian denominations are benign, do real charity, uphld family values etc. But their tech doesn't work - sorry.

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

Mindfulness meditation free? Never seen that. The nearest place to me (local franchise of Mindfulness Association UK) that offers it charges 25% of the national monthly average wage for a two-day course.

As I said dude, it's free. Google it and try out some of the mindfullness exercises.

Count yourself lucky. At least its a cheap scam in your case.

There's no scam. It's just a yoga class @ 104 degrees F. The monthly fee pays for the heat and a class leader.

Its placebo. Prayer does not provide any reliable, repeatable effects, no more than auditing. Billions of people don't agree with your assessment. It sometimes works, sometiems does not and you need to believe in it to even have chance of it working. I'm more or less OK with this sentence. Jesus asks you to believe in God, but I can't say that's a requirement for receiving any benefit from prayer. Oh and prayer certainly does not reliably cure anyone from somatic disease, nor does it prevent road accidents and all the other stuff people pray for. So what? What's it to you that someone goes and get's a blessing before departing on a trip or something?

Anecdotal evidence warning: My dad spent years praying for my sis to leave scientology, little good it did him. How do you know that it didn't make him feel better to have some hopeful thoughts about his own daughter?

For me to consider it "working tech" it would need to provide consistent, measurable and repeatable results regardless if the person praying believes or not. Why you're going on about "workable tech, I don't know, but it's not a term from the Bible. One thing for certain though, Christianity has had a massive positive effect in the world and you personally are benefiting, living as you are in a country with social norms and standards and laws aimed to protect the innocent. Aspirin works regardless who takes it and if he/she believes in it. It also works in the placebo form for a certain percentage that believe they are taking aspirin when they are not.

Again: Most christian denominations are benign, do real charity, uphld family values etc. But their tech doesn't work - sorry.

Again, Im wondering what the "false foundations" are that you claimed for meditation, yogo and Christ.

Replies in red above.

P.S. And like JustSheila from another thread, I'm not going on and on and on and on back and forth with you.

I have noticed from being on ESMB for a long time that it can take a while to rearrange thought patterns and lingo. "Workable tech" is one of those Hubbard phrases that isn't really used in the real world. There's no need to worry about this, unless you're in the cult of Scientology. Google meditation and yoga and try it for free. If you got nothing from it or got something from it, nobody really gives a shit and nobody is worried - whatever floats your boat is cool - and if someday you find yourself in a tough spot, perhaps you'll find Christ waiting right there for you.

Good Luck to you and everyone getting Scino-think out of their minds~

 

[Karakorum]

Again, Im wondering what the "false foundations" are that you claimed for meditation, yogo and Christ.

The false foundation of Christ is the belief that the deceased cult leader is not dead, that he will return, and that he is the only one who can bring spiritual salvation to people. The other false foundation is that prayer, when "done correctly" (just as the claim that auditing works 100% if applied as "standard") has an actual physical impact on the world. That prayer prevents wars, car accidents, can heal people, can assure that someone's heart operation will be successful and so on.

"Ther power of prayer" is just like auditing - grandiose promises of superpowers, with no repeatable, predictable results. That's not science, that's just people's delusions. Its the faulty claims behind auditing and prayer: the claims that these are legit working practices that will work 100% of the time if performed properly/performed with enough faith.

"Workable tech" is one of those Hubbard phrases that isn't really used in the real world. There's no need to worry about this, unless you're in the cult of Scientology.

Really it doesn't matter for you if it works or not? Are you being serious?

Cause when I buy a blender, all it matters if it works or not. If there is a religion, all it matters is if their practices work (produce the results they promise) or not. I can drop the scn lingo, and just go with "does it work or not", but the fact is: prayer doesn't work, doesn't give you the "superpowers from God".

One thing for certain though, Christianity has had a massive positive effect in the world and you personally are benefiting, living as you are in a country with social norms and standards and laws aimed to protect the innocent.

I'm sorry, I find this claim incredulous. It has the same vibe that: "even you wogs are personally benefiting from scientology, without Hubbard this world would go to shit and there'd be nuclear war and stuff".

I don't buy that: "You benefit from our spiritual triumps" talk. Sorry. I live in a country ran on Roman and German law, and social programs created some 2 millenia after Christ. Not to mention democracy that was never mentioned by Christ.

As I said dude, it's free. Google it and try out some of the mindfullness exercises.

Are these by the Mindfulness Association and MBLC (Mindfulness Based Living Course)? I know you can find free stuff online by people unconnected to them (sort of mindfulness free zoners), I have few issues with them. Its the so called "non-for-profit organisation" of Mindfulness Association that shares the money grubbing with scn (its still less nefarius than scn).

There's no scam. It's just a yoga class @ 104 degrees F. The monthly fee pays for the heat and a class leader.

I used to think that. But then I started seeing the cultish elements of the Bikram guru thing. The guy said lies about himself that are of Hubbardian proportions. The various non-traditional elements he introduced are for added show, but bring no results, the heat is just for added mind-altering factor.Maybe that could be ok, if he told you that outright, but he won't. Instead he lies how its all just about the body.
His whole mindset was to "sell yoga to gullible white men", taking actual working parts from traditional yoga and adding some brainwashing to help monetize it. He has lawsuits about sex molestation on him, he fled the US not to pay the ~6 million $ he owes... the guy is a con man.

There's real and valuable Yoga schoools out there - ashtanga, sivananda and many more. I'm likewise not against meditiation, on the contrary I think its a great practice if done in a real way.I use it myself and I believe I achieved a lot of insight (subjective anecdotal stuff - I can't prove it, I can just say I see the results).
But that's real meditiation, not monetized mumbo-jumbo.

Traditional schools are to Bikram as real psychology was to Scientology.