Successes after leaving Scientology

[Romuva]

You are absolutely correct Romuva.

But you can change a whole nation if you put your mind and soul to it.

It isn't doing the big things, it is doing the little day to day things.

It is educating people on the true things or areas they need to be educated on.....

"Perhaps some of you would like to say what are the most important things that people should be educated on?"

In third world countries the education system is designed to control and enslave people.

The Gov. policies are designed to control and enslave people.

Almost all major groups on this planet use policies and processes to control and enslave people.

Almost all people are trained and educated to control and enslave people.

All taxation systems are designed to control and enslave people.

These are the major negative processes being run throughout the world.

To undo this programming may take centuries.

Luckily we have the internet which is passing an immense amount of knowledge and know-how across all borders.

As the people throughout the world become more literate there will be massive evolutions.

But almost everyone on this planet is "positive word and concept" illiterate.

"If you can't define it, you can't have it." It is as simple as that.

Alan

I'm with you Alan.For myself,I often find people that don't want to change
or perhaps they don't understand the change that would help their life
or others.They're very suspicious or cynical.Very understandable.

So I take the bit by bit ...day to day model myself.Somebody has to try
in my case because most of the people don't care.

 

[Alan]

I admire tremendously what you are doing.

You have found a somewhat safe space and you have great reach.

As for people not caring......the price of caring can usually be high.....a firing squad, years in jail or being declared SP.

People in terror hide behind "not caring."

People go into immobility from fear and terror.

Life and honor if not on the party line is still pretty cheap on this planet.

Fear is a tough emotion to overcome. Just ask the people lurking on this newsgroup....

Alan

 

[tarbaby]

Alan has always been a motivator (the good kind) in my opinion. He's a team builder and the kind of leader who never fails to look after the well-being of his team members.

I admit was never staff in his missions, but in the years of knowing him, I don't recall ever hearing of him screwing over anybody.

Dennis

 

[Alan]

Alan has always been a motivator (the good kind) in my opinion. A team builder. The kind of leader who always looks after the well-being of his team.

I was never staff in his missions, but in the years of knowing him, I don't recall and never heard of him ever screwing over anybody.

Dennis

I wish that this were true......but I possibly have the greatest amount of "screwing over of people" on this list........I enabled Hubbard and now DM to do what has turned out to be an incredible disaster for 10,000's of people.

Alan

 

[Romuva]

I admire tremendously what you are doing.

You have found a somewhat safe space and you have great reach.

As for people not caring......the price of caring can usually be high.....a firing squad, years in jail or being declared SP.

People in terror hide behind "not caring."

People go into immobility from fear and terror.

Life and honor if not on the party line is still pretty cheap on this planet.

Fear is a tough emotion to overcome. Just ask the people lurking on this newsgroup....

Alan

Yeah Alan,I'm not sure if at the end of the day how much of a huge difference
I make.I can help several musicians along the way but obviously it's the
larger captial investment that makes the bigger difference.Like you
mentioned it's obviously larger goals and education that will seek to
undo some of the problems you mention.

It probably is safe,more like tidoeus and boring at times but nevertheless
rewarding if it has a productive outcome.

In my endeavour,the fact that supposedly the Swedish or Norwegian govt.
(i'm not sure which one) supposedly donated several pianos ,Help from the Dutch govt.ect.in the end probably made a bigger difference but it's not to say I still can't contribute.There are still plenty of creative ways people can help and contribute on a smaller scale.It's not to say you can't have higher goals and ideals,ect.but the "all or nothing" greater cause is probably
very hard to seperate out for many ex-scientologists.

It's hard to sacrifice your life for as long as some of these people did and then one day to
leave and look back and say"what did I actually do?"...what were the actual tangible results?"

Not to say there weren't.because I feel people still made some difference and did help people
on a basic level.If people still believe in alot of the concepts and are improving their lives
outside of COS who is to say somebody didn't facilitate that?


and true, past apathy and fear have led to people being indifferent and
very survivalist and immediately providing their own needs and necessities.

and this is the similiarity I see in totalitarian groups.The ability they have
to create fear and apathy on alot of levels.

Sometimes it takes a while to see the actual results too.

 

[tarbaby]

I wish that this were true......but I possibly have the greatest amount of "screwing over of people" on this list........I enabled Hubbard and now DM to do what has turned out to be an incredible disaster for 10,000's of people.Alan

Heh, Alan. Those are errors we will always work to mitigate and never repeat. Those lessons have been thoroughly learnt. And I could spend he rest of my time on earth just trying to sort out my family, and still not undo all the damage *I* have done to them.

But those are not the kind of regrets anyone else can do anything about; only ourselves. Others can only look on in support and/or disgust. I appreciate all the support I garnered by doing what I did. But I think you remember, I was a true believer that there should be no secret dogma that was kept from public view and "use."

Anyway ... I've tried very hard to become the kind of person I like to have as a friend. A genuinely caring person. Affable in nearly all circumstances. Steadfast and trustworthy. Never to harm, needlessly upset or put down another person. Always to apologize for mistakes and rudeness, even if it is not my responsibility to bear completely. I guess you could say that I try to behave as near to God's ideal of me, as possible. And that involves correcting my mistakes. It's part of my nature now.

I know you understand on this thread I was asking for and referring to the personal screwings we all were at times asked to do, of people and friends. Like individuals we may have harmed, disrespected or disregarded by being such good followers. (the easy stuff) Or even on purpose. (sigh)

It seems to me I recall once before when we had an earlier (oh god plz help me!) similar Meeting of Great Minds that involved, at least in part, people seeking forgiveness from each other. Or was that on the HoleTrak?

I'm glad your on this board, Alan.

Dennis

 

[Alan]

Few people know what you have been through.....fewer still could have withstood the constant attempts to destroy you utterly.

I witnessed just one attempt on you.......it was pure evil.....everything you loved and held dear was used in an attempt to drive you insane and destroy you utterly.

I remember you coming into my office and saying to me: "I'm no use to you or your people, I'm too upset....to be of any use, I need to leave!"

I remember sitting there.....feeling hopeless that I could not help.

Over the years I followed the relentless attacks on you....then came possibly the most disgusting attack of all......the raid on your house and the taking of you personal computer and your files......

That may well have been the footbullet of all time as from that point on the internet rallied on your side against Scio.....

Scio lost the most powerful tool on this planet.......it showed a fraction of its true intent.....world domination.......and its evil to destroy utterly anyone who dared challenge them.

When you won the court case it was a victory for all of us......had you collected a $100,000,000 it would never pay back the price you paid.

I too am glad you are on this board.

Alan
________

 

[tarbaby]

Few people know what you have been through.....fewer still could have withstood the constant attempts to destroy you utterly.

Like the chinaman said: They bettah off.

I witnessed just one attempt on you.......it was pure evil.....everything you loved and held dear was used in an attempt to drive you insane and destroy you utterly.
I remember you coming into my office and saying to me: "I'm no use to you or your people, I'm too upset....to be of any use, I need to leave!"
I remember sitting there.....feeling hopeless that I could not help.

Oh yah. I forgot about that little episode, Alan. Thanks for trying to help me.

Over the years I followed the relentless attacks on you....then came possibly the most disgusting attack of all......the raid on your house and the taking of you personal computer and your files......
That may well have been the footbullet of all time as from that point on the internet rallied on your side against Scio.....

That's called "bumping the stump" by farmers.

Scio lost the most powerful tool on this planet.......it showed a fraction of its true intent.....world domination.......and its evil to destroy utterly anyone who dared challenge them.

All the energy they put into destroying me ended up tearing down the secrecy. Like in judo, their own efforts brought them down.

When you won the court case it was a victory for all of us......had you collected a $100,000,000 it would never pay back the price you paid.

My family paid and is still paying.

I too am glad you are on this board. Alan

Be well, my friend.
Dennis

 

[Romuva]

I remember when I left ,somebody called me one time and said half-jokingly
. "you know if you're up to no good,we'll find out about you."

What are they ,the f****in police? in America?

That's why when I read the accounts here they just re-affirm everything
I felt before.I try to be open-minded and objective about it but
how can you be,at times.

The thing that gets me is some of the ex-scis act just like COS sometimes.
.."OSA" "implant"...."Sociopath"...They seem to have just as much of an
agenda as COS it seems.

oh well,but it takes alot of strength to overcome it and I really admire people that
do.

To move on and succeed or at least be happy is a good thing I think.

 

[tarbaby]

I remember when I left ,somebody called me one time and said half-jokingly. "you know if you're up to no good,we'll find out about you."
What are they ,the f****in police? in America?

Even if they were, I'd refuse to live that way ... always looking over one's shoulder; watching what one says. Like the song says, "No one's drivin' me underground ... not yet anyway."

That's why when I read the accounts here they just re-affirm everything
I felt before.I try to be open-minded and objective about it but
how can you be,at times.
The thing that gets me is some of the ex-scis act just like COS sometimes.
.."OSA" "implant"...."Sociopath"...They seem to have just as much of an
agenda as COS it seems.

Well, hopefully the agenda is to spare others the harm that awaits them and their families, if they get snared. That can be a crusade for some people. It can also twist them into something undesirable. It almost did me. But fortunately I had my core of internet trusted friends to keep me grounded with factual reality. The buttersquash gang. Someday the story will be told.

oh well,but it takes alot of strength to overcome it and I really admire people that do.
To move on and succeed or at least be happy is a good thing I think.

It toadly is! A crusade is not the cure for having been in a cult.

Dennis

 

[Romuva]

Even if they were, I'd refuse to live that way ... always looking over one's shoulder; whatching what one says. Like the song says, "No one's drivin' me underground ... not yet anyway."



Well, hopefully the agenda is to spare anyone else the harm that awaits them and their families, if they get snared. That can be a crusade for some people. It can also twist them into something undesirable. It almost did me. But fortunately I had my core of internet trusted friends to keep me grounded with factual reality. The buttersquash gang. Someday the story will be told.



It toadly is! A crusade is not the cure for having been in a cult.

Dennis

That's true Dennis,I understand the idea to prevent people from getting
into the mess in the first place.I couldn't agree more.

In alot of ways a post like this is the best way to demonstrate that there
can be a life after COS.It's something that should be reinforced in my
opinion.
That there's a possible light at the end of the tunnel.Very True

 

[lionheart]

Well done Dennis

Dennis, I didn't follow your legals with CofS. I was living a life.

But I applaud what you did, taking on the cult and exposing their dirty ways - Sheesh!

Isn't it interesting that natter about you still percolates on the internet?

Be well and as Mr H used to say "Flourish and prosper!"

 

[Romuva]

lionheart

good points but I would have to say,sorry.(not implying you made any suggestions,just
expressing my own opinion)


People who have left COS,worked hard and flourished and prospered on
their own.

Not some bullshit artist,sci-fi writer who made thousands of dollars off
of blood money that people worked very hard for and sacrificed their
families with.and still are.

It's just my opinion but Hubbard didn't earn the thousands if not millions
people gave to COS.

 

[lionheart]

lionheart

good points but I would have to say,sorry.(not implying you made any suggestions,just
expressing my own opinion)


People who have left COS,worked hard and flourished and prospered on
their own.

Not some bullshit artist,sci-fi writer who made thousands of dollars off
of blood money that people worked very hard for and sacrificed their
families with.and still are.

It's just my opinion but Hubbard didn't earn the thousands if not millions
people gave to COS.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I was wishing Dennis well. I wasn't praising LRH. Sometimes it amuses me to quote him - doesn't mean I think he was right or anything like that. He said that when faced with suppressive opposition one should flourish and prosper. It amuses me to think that someone like Dennis can do so after taking on the CofS

 

[tarbaby]

I think you misunderstood what I said. I was wishing Dennis well. I wasn't praising LRH. Sometimes it amuses me to quote him - doesn't mean I think he was right or anything like that. He said that when faced with suppressive opposition one should flourish and prosper. It amuses me to think that someone like Dennis can do so after taking on the CofS

Yes and hopefully it will serve as proof to others that one can speak out without being driven bug-nuts or sucumbing under the harassment.

Dennis

 

[Romuva]

I think you misunderstood what I said. I was wishing Dennis well. I wasn't praising LRH. Sometimes it amuses me to quote him - doesn't mean I think he was right or anything like that. He said that when faced with suppressive opposition one should flourish and prosper. It amuses me to think that someone like Dennis can do so after taking on the CofS

lionheart,no problem.I understood you fine.sorry.

I was just ranting.

It amazes me too.

 

[Alanzo]

Last month I paid the last of $45,000 worth of credit cards that were used for Scientology fucking services.

Including the first "line of credit" I ever opened in 1987, originally to pay for my CCRD. It took me 20 years to pay that off.

Yes, I personally was an idiot for using credit in this way.

But I truly would have never done this had I not had help from the Church of the Credit Card. :fyou: :fyou:

No more Scientology debt!

 

[Dulloldfart]

Last month I paid the last of $45,000 worth of credit cards that were used for Scientology fucking services.

Including the first "line of credit" I ever opened in 1987, originally to pay for my CCRD. It took me 20 years to pay that off.

Yes, I personally was an idiot for using credit in this way.

But I truly would have never done this had I not had help from the Church of the Credit Card. :fyou: :fyou:

No more Scientology debt!

Good for you!

Did you ever work out how much you originally borrowed and how much you paid in interest?

Paul

 

[Roland ami]

After Scn

After leaving, mid OTVII (according to the CoS, anyway), my 2D straightened out, my income went up by a large factor and I now own a successful company. I give away a lot of money annually, and I have developed many new friendships to replace the two people in Scn I really cared about.

Meanwhile, AFAIK, one of those two got cancer and both went through bankruptcy, and from the glimpses I've had of them neither are doing at all well, sadly.

Leaving the CoS was the right thing to do.

Roland

 

[Alanzo]

Credit Cards = The Church of Scientology

Good for you!

Did you ever work out how much you originally borrowed and how much you paid in interest?

Yes, about 8 years ago I started making spreadsheets and looking at these debts from different angles. I added up those numbers, and it made me absolutely sick. It became a daily awareness of the damage I was doing to myself.

Looking at those numbers, I asked my self, "What's the difference between this and a bad cocaine habit?"

I started telling reges that I would not take on any more credit card debt. The response I got from taking this stand really started to open my eyes.

Tim Edwards, the AO reg, wanted me to take out one more credit card, buy my OT 3 package with it, and then to declare bankruptcy. He told me that it was my "case" telling me not to do it, and that, as a Clear, I actually did not have any self determinism until I got through OT 3. I said, "Wait a minute. As a Clear, I thought I no longer had my own reactive mind."

He let me know that as a Clear I was more effect of my "case" than ever. And so by going another 25 grand into debt, and then declaring bankruptcy, I would be able to see the theta reasoning behind it - once I got through OT 3.

He said, "Pretend you're dead, and you are looking back on your life. Which is more important - that you went bankrupt, or that you are OT3"?

I said, "I became a Scientologist to win at life. Not to lose at it."

I began to look at all the OTs I knew, and count the ones who had declared bankruptcy. I counted 15 OTs I personally knew who had gone bankrupt.

Every single Reg brushed my statements aside, and they all heavily opposed my resistance to taking on more debt. Most employed the very common manipulative tactic used in the CofS: to intentionally mis-characterize your position as something ridiculous, or out-ethics, or even suppressive to the Church, and then throw that mis-characterization back in your face and have you defend against it.

I was taken off course and sent to ethics for not putting my IAS membership on a credit card. I was locked in a room with two reges at AO as they tried to "handle me" on it, yelling at me, ignoring references as I tried to present my reasoning to prove to them that I wasn't out-ethics. I even brought in and showed to them all my bills and my income statements in order to have them really get my position, and how it wasn't "out-ethics" or "case" for me to stop going further into debt. Now I know I was an idiot for doing this, thinking that all these explanations I gave them were ever going to get any where with them.

But hey - I was still a true blue Scientologist then, and that's what true blue Scientologists have to do in the Church of Scientology: Once you stand accused, you have to prove your innocence.

I made a graph of my total debt, as well as my total net worth, and it shows from the day of my decision a steady improvement - no matter what they threw at me. Not one of those fucks were able to wear me down.

It was during this period that the cracks got very glaring in the Scientology facade.

When you look at what credit card companies do to people, it is no wonder that they are the main tool of Scientology Registrars.

Credit Cards = The Church of Scientology in my mind.

And I'm never going back to either.